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  1. #61

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    umm ADHD isn't insanity.

  2. #62
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    I think they make an exception in Ardent's case.
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  3. #63

    Default <laughs>

    I don't believe in ADHD (sorry if that offends anyone)

    I'm positive that if I went and got analyzed, I'd come back with that as a diagnosis, but I dare say I function just fine in the real world. (I'm also lysdexic, among a few other things, and while I DO have trouble with the difference between my right and left (which is only made more difficult since I'm semi-ambidextrous) I don't complain any, and instead do everything via N S E W, which for some reason I have no problem keeping track of at all) Point being, I know plenty of people who COULD function fine if they chose to, but instead use their diagnosis as an excuse for under-acheivement and dependency upon someone else. I can't think of anything that's more... dishonest, not only to the people around you (who for the most part aren't so stupid that they can't see the truth) but also to yourself. If you just let the world define who you are, then you never reach your full potential, and chances are you would have had enough trouble doing that without the rest of the world telling you that you're handicapped.

    Point being, if you care to over-come your "mental illnesses" chances are you'll do so w/o to much of a problem (I do of course not prescribe this for major illnesses such as psychitzofrenia and multiple personality disorder)

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  4. #64
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    Originally posted by Rogue Janson
    [B[/b]]I think they make an exception in Ardent's case.
    Don't I wish? Actually, for the purposes of legal action, ADHD meets the qualifiers for an insanity defense. You often perform involuntary actions and it's extremely difficult to convince a jury that someone with ADHD could commit pre-meditated murder in the same way someone without it can.

    It's not a dementia on the level most people think of when they think "insane" but it does inhibit function in a manner similar to a lot of dementia.

    Other things you may not think qualify for insanity defense and do: clinical depression, amnesia (technically, you're not fit to stand trial to begin with), PTSS (depending), and a few other fairly common afflictions.
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    It is not that ADHD does not exhist, because when you have seen a real child with it you know. The problem lays in the fact that it is over dignosed, just as Ardent mentioned. True ADHD is a debilitating disorder that often leads to violence and criminal behavior. This is not just simple concentration problems so much as a formula for failure and extreeem depression if left untreated. As with any disorder there are levels of ADHD, but I have known some kids who are completly incapable of following a single paragraph of text, and they get so frustrated and angry and ultimatle get depressed and aggressive.
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: <laughs>

    Originally posted by EclipseGc
    I don't believe in ADHD (sorry if that offends anyone)

    I'm positive that if I went and got analyzed, I'd come back with that as a diagnosis, but I dare say I function just fine in the real world. (I'm also lysdexic, among a few other things, and while I DO have trouble with the difference between my right and left (which is only made more difficult since I'm semi-ambidextrous) I don't complain any, and instead do everything via N S E W, which for some reason I have no problem keeping track of at all) Point being, I know plenty of people who COULD function fine if they chose to, but instead use their diagnosis as an excuse for under-acheivement and dependency upon someone else. I can't think of anything that's more... dishonest, not only to the people around you (who for the most part aren't so stupid that they can't see the truth) but also to yourself. If you just let the world define who you are, then you never reach your full potential, and chances are you would have had enough trouble doing that without the rest of the world telling you that you're handicapped.

    Point being, if you care to over-come your "mental illnesses" chances are you'll do so w/o to much of a problem (I do of course not prescribe this for major illnesses such as psychitzofrenia and multiple personality disorder)

    Kris
    One of the things i would love to know. If all these 'newly diagnosed' disorders are not, what IMO are just made up, then what the heck did people do before they were discovered? Are these quacks trying to tell us, that they existed, but no one just noticed or payed any attention????

    Let me clarify..

    Back when i was in school 79-90 which was before all this ADHD schllop started to come up, there were many kids IMO who if they got teleported into this time, would have been diagnosed with ADHD. ALL of them straightened their act out, when they saw that their schinanigans was not getting them anything. But these days, cause they SEE it getting others results, they IMO act that way to get out of being punished. Or their parents get them 'seen to, and diagnosed' with it, so as to avoid having to be proper parents, and buck their kids acts together...
    Last edited by wolverine; 11 August 2004 at 12:29 PM.
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  7. #67
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    Default Re: Re: <laughs>

    Originally posted by wolverine
    One of the things i would love to know. If all these 'newly diagnosed' disorders are not, what IMO are just made up, then what the heck did people do before they were discovered? Are these quacks trying to tell us, that they existed, but no one just noticed or payed any attention????
    This is something that is often brought up and has a very interesting answer I'll get to in a second.

    Back when i was in school 79-90 which was before all this ADHD schllop started to come up, there were many kids IMO who if they got teleported into this time, would have been diagnosed with ADHD. ALL of them straightened their act out, when they saw that their schinanigans was not getting them anything. But these days, cause they SEE it getting others results, they IMO act that way to get out of being punished. Or their parents get them 'seen to, and diagnosed' with it, so as to avoid having to be proper parents, and buck their kids acts together...
    I was finishing up high school around the time mass-diagnosis of ADD/ADHD began and special needs education was more or less relegated to anyone not averaging Cs or better (close to 1/5 of my graduating class -- about normal according to the Bell curve).

    Mental illness has only recently begun to be treated by use of medication that duplicates or stimulates physiological effects. Prior to these medications, most people who genuinely possessed the ADD/ADHD disorder simply learned to temper it with discipline. I like to believe that I've learned to do the same myself (assuming for a second you'd believe the diagnosis of ADHD). The nature of a dementia requires some mental effort to resolve the illness on the individual's part, and many clinical psychologists/psychiatrists have found that modern persons just aren't equipped with the emotional tools for that sort of thing. Placebo medication often works just as effectively for them as the actual medicine.

    In addition to that, as diagnosis has gone up it's very possible the "afflication" has spread. When I was a kid, my two hours of TV/video games a day was an exceptionally large amount of time spent gaming. Now I babysit kids who play video games/watch TV every waking moment they're not in school.

    I can't imagine that's all that good for them, although I make it a point to try and split their TV time between fun stuff (I bring kid-friendly anime with me a lot -- and do my best to educate their parents about what is and isn't meant for children as far as cartoons go) and educational TV like the History channel. Kids are really just as captivated by programming on the Hellcat versus Zero dogfights of WWII as they are by some neo-Japanime with CG and neat effects. But as far as determining how much time they can spend watching TV, I leave it up to their parents to dictate. If their folks say two hours of TV/games then that's what the kids get and I grab a board game to distract them for the rest of the time they'll inevitably be awake.

    These kids aren't maladjusted and their parents aren't particularly negligent...they just need to learn how to focus their (much shorter) attention spans on one task for a reasonable amount of time. Chances are some M.D. who doesn't know a horse's ass from his own will diagnose them with ADD or ADHD, but they're not impaired any more than any other kid. They just haven't been practiced in focusing their attention.
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    I can't imagine that's all that good for them, although I make it a point to try and split their TV time between fun stuff (I bring kid-friendly anime with me a lot -- and do my best to educate their parents about what is and isn't meant for children as far as cartoons go) and educational TV like the History channel. Kids are really just as captivated by programming on the Hellcat versus Zero dogfights of WWII as they are by some neo-Japanime with CG and neat effects. But as far as determining how much time they can spend watching TV, I leave it up to their parents to dictate. If their folks say two hours of TV/games then that's what the kids get and I grab a board game to distract them for the rest of the time they'll inevitably be awake.
    It's interesting you bring those up. When I was a little kid, I would always watch the History Channel and the DIscovery Channel, and never really watched cartoons or anything like that. I've always been the type that really liked to learn and remember stuff about history and technology (I guess it paid off since I'm now something like the second highest rated NAQT quiz bowl player in the state of Iowa). Of course, it didn't really bode that well for social learning, and I didn't fare too well initally Of course, the fact that I didn't melt my brain on kiddie programming (some of that crap shouldn't be on the air, after I graduated from Mr. Rodgers and Captain Kangaroo, there was almost nothing worthwhile on) isn't the only part that is to blame for that (church groups are the big social thing down here, so not being Protestant, Mormon, or Mormon Protestant [now 'COC' I believe], I didn't have a lot of social oppertunities), but did contribute to being fairly poorly adjusted until high school, where the nerd population in class skyrockets (5 of us, which is ok for a 110 enrollment), which eventually straightened me out... more or less
    But kids to day are a little hyperactive, you know? Just kind of over stimulated I suspect. We didn't have the influx of technology they have today. I mean sure, we had computers, video games, and TV, but the programming for them required a lot more imagination to come to life than it does now. Nowadays, a kid doesn't need as much imagination to entertain themselves, which is kind of sad.
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  9. #69
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    Ardent's point is a valid one, as to the increse in diagnosis, and I offer some others:
    • Enormous increases in the communication rate in the past 20 years. Honestly this has had a huge effect on the medical industry on the whole. Now it is so easy for physicians to compare cases all over the united states. In addition it is also an age where our mews moves at lighspeed, so people hear about these epidemics faster. The media is also apt to blow a small rise in casses in to said epidemic for the sake of ratings.
    • Drug therapy. In the past there was no way to treat ADHD, Depression, Anxiety, Bi-polar disorder, and many others Psych disorders without personality changing drugs. When Ritalin came out it was a huge boon for a few kids, and the media juped on it. There probably was some push from the drug companies that increased diagnosis, but on the other hand physcians and psychiatrists now had a tool with which they could help these children. When there is not a good treatment a physician is likely to put the child in to what ever diagnosis will help them the best, in order to fit them in to the insurance system.
    • Times change. Our society has gone from an agrarian, to an industrial, to a electronic based society in a relativley shor period of time. This has had a tremendous effect on our mental health. Our parents were likely to spend much of their time outside in athletic persuits. Additionally their educational requirements were much less, even comparitivly. Now your children are expected to take in an incredible ammount of information, and their activities are legely passive in nature. Couple that with the fact that poverty is at an all time high, and you see that children are under a very differnt kind of stress than were were even a generation ago.
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    <
    In addition to that, as diagnosis has gone up it's very possible the "afflication" has spread. When I was a kid, my two hours of TV/video games a day was an exceptionally large amount of time spent gaming. Now I babysit kids who play video games/watch TV every waking moment they're not in school.>>

    That actually makes me more suspicious.

    What with all the sites on the internet letting you know symptoms etc of disease ZYX, all a kid has to do, is check on it, at home (or even at school), and start applying it. EG
    Little johnny knows he is getting bum grades at school, cause of all his sleeping in class. He hears of one of the other students who was diagnosed with ADHD last year, getting a bump up in grades. So he does some research, finds out what the symptoms would be, and how someone with it acts. he then starts to act that way, so is now classified as being ADHD.
    Ergo, he gets out of being in trouble...
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    Unfortunately, wolverine, the problem is that not all kids with "ADHD" (if it truly exists) see a dramatic increase in their grades if given medicine/therapy/etc. Often there's underlying reasons beyond such a diagnosis to why the child is not getting good grades (e.g., trouble understanding language, concepts, etc.).

    Plus, take into consideration the fact that few kids are going to be able to fool professionals into thinking they have something that they don't. I, for one, remember trying to pull one over on my school nurses when I was young to try to convince them I was ill. More often than not, they saw right through my deception and sent me back to class. Try as they might, kids aren't going to know everything that an adult is looking for to determine whether they have "ADHD" or what have you...

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  12. #72

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    I never had trouble getting outta classes if I didn't want the be there any longer. With that said, I think you might need to take into account the fact that some children simply hate school, and thus would act out just because of that.

    IMO the school system is clunky and outdated and needs a good kick in the balls.

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    Originally posted by wolverine
    What with all the sites on the internet letting you know symptoms etc of disease ZYX, all a kid has to do, is check on it, at home (or even at school), and start applying it. EG
    Little johnny knows he is getting bum grades at school, cause of all his sleeping in class. He hears of one of the other students who was diagnosed with ADHD last year, getting a bump up in grades. So he does some research, finds out what the symptoms would be, and how someone with it acts. he then starts to act that way, so is now classified as being ADHD.
    Ergo, he gets out of being in trouble...
    I dunno bud...I slept through the first period of school every day of my high school career and I managed to get good grades nonetheless. I don't think lack of effort and achievement are mutually exclusive. I just learned to read all the course-related work at home (which may explain why I was up to 1am doing homework to begin with) and just take a pass to the nurse's office first period.

    Nobody seemed to mind. I missed lectures most kids ignored via other means and still handed in my homework, managed to grasp the concepts I'd have missed otherwise and did my best not to just tumble out of my desk when I fell asleep despite my own best efforts.

    Since leaving school I've spoken to the Board of Education about a dozen times about pushing school hours back (it runs from 7am to 2pm here) as a method of discouraging kids from sleeping in class (which has hit its peak of late). There are always excuses and pishaws and "mind your own business" responses, and it makes me wonder how I managed to benefit at all from an education overseen by the bunch of idiots I approach about correcting flaws. Anyhow, just to give you an idea...when I went to the nurse's office to catch a quick nap I was often alone, or at worst had one person for company. These days I'm told kids are lucky to get one of the beds. One was actually sleeping on the reception couch when I dropped in to say hello one day.
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  14. #74
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    I think there are three underlying things that are undermining our society. (Note, I'm talking about America)

    1) The media. Need I say more. Just look at the crap they're throwing at us. Oh, morality and traditional values don't matter. As long as they get viewers. Also, these mush-brain kiddie kiddie shows. I swear, they should be banned.

    2) Out terrible school system. I'd know. I'm in it. The classes are riddiculously easy, teachers seem almost afraid to hand out detentions, and most pf the kds have no desire to learn or exel. At lease here, the schools lower the standards to accomidate the children.

    Right now, I'm basically in an honors class. It's many times harder than the normal classes. In these classes I have to struggle to get high grades. But when I got some information about colledge, my advanced classes had almost no difference to my record, even hurting it becuase I got a few B's. It really makes me angry.

    3)Drugs. Right now, I'd say about a third of my school is using drugs on a regular basis. We know it, the teachers know it, but no one does ANYHTING about it.


    Oh, about ADHD, I was diagnosed with ADAD when I was 6. It was very difficult for me to concentrate. I took Ritalin for about a year (It didn't seem to help. I'd laugh if it was really getting me high), but when I stopped taking it and game myself things to do, my problem has al but gone away. I'm still a bit absent minded, but half of my extended family is like that.

    I think that disease does exist, but no where near the numbers that doctors will give you today. Many peopel probably just have trouble consentrating, becuase over over stimulation, drugs, or what not.



    In addition to that, as diagnosis has gone up it's very possible the "afflication" has spread. When I was a kid, my two hours of TV/video games a day was an exceptionally large amount of time spent gaming. Now I babysit kids who play video games/watch TV every waking moment they're not in school.

    Yes. It's riddiculous. I know a kid who watches at least 4 hours of TV a day. I couldn't stand that much. (Actually, I'm kind of guilty right now. I got a new computer and Black & White running)
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  15. #75

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    I want to clear up a few things. First, there is ADD and there isADHD. They are similar but not the same thing. Ritalin is typically prescribed to ADD kids. It does not work with ADHD kids.

    ADD is where a person has extreme difficulties concentrating and is easily distracted by trivial things. The best way I can explain it is that part of the brain is operating at 33 rpm. The rest of it is operating at 200 rpm. Ritalin (and drugs like it) speed the slower areas up to where they are operating at the same speed as the rest of the brain. This results in improved concentration. Of course the problem with this is that Ritalin is essentially Speed (methamphetamines) -- which is not good for children (or anyone else for that matter) to take for a long period.

    ADHD is worse than ADD. On top of the concentration problems, a person afflicted with ADHD has serious problems sitting still -- which only adds to problems with concentration. The body builds up energy at a fast rate which the person compulsively releases through ticks and sudden (and often unexplainable) movements. People with ADHD fidget continuously and excessively. This is not just tapping your foot when you get impatient. It is an inability to sit still at all and is often characterized by moving the entire body constantly.

    ADHD is harder to treat and often requires a period of trial and error with medication until one is found that works. If Ritalin (and simliar drugs) are used with ADHD patients, the opposite of the desired effect happens. ADHD patients on Ritalin usually see their symptoms increase in severity. Because of that, drugs which slow the brain down are typically used to treat ADHD.

    Unfortunately, ADD and ADHD are often diagnosed in error. Many children who just have not been taught self restraint are diagnosed in error. But, for the children that do suffer from one or the other, the conditions are very real.

    Part of the diagnosis problem is parents. Parents who have difficulty being parents typically look to others to tell them what is "wrong" with their children. There are doctors who are happy to do so. The other problem is that having ADD and ADHD qualifies a student for special education. Since special education is the best funded part of any school system and laws require schools systems to keep SE classrooms at a much smaller students to teacher ratio, it can be in a childs' best interest to be diagnosed with ADD even when it doesn't exist. Parents (and even schools) push to have a difficult child "labelled" to absolve themselves of the responsibility of handling them.
    Last edited by MalakiTyrel; 13 August 2004 at 12:37 AM.

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