Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: Sidious and public knowledge

  1. #1
    Moderator
    Join Date
    February 2000
    Location
    Outer Heaven
    Posts
    8,367

    Default Sidious and public knowledge

    A discussion over on Theforce.net got me thinking.....
    do the galactic public know (or ever find out about) Darth Sidious?
    It seems that somewhere between ep3 and 4 he drops the "Darth" and remains "Palpatine".
    The public (Imperial citizens) don't know that he's a Sith?

    Heck, most of the inhabitants of the galaxy have pretty much forgotten about the Jedi, so I'd guess not many knew about the Sith during the Rise of the Empire era...even less during the Rebellion.
    And it seems that even high ranking Imperial officers don't know about Palpatine's Force-use since an officer on the first Death Star (General Tagge IIRC) disses Vader on his sad devotion to a forgotten religion...he sure wouldn't say that if he knew Palpatine's power...

    Just a thought...

  2. #2

    Default

    I was thinking about this as well (got the original trilogy DVDs for Christmas, so been watching a lot of SW lately).

    It seems to me that nobody knows that Palpy's a Sith. Unless we see in Ep. III that he comes out in a major way, then Vader would be the only Sith in the films who really makes his presence known to the galaxy at large. Darth Maul was on and off the scene too quickly to get noticed; Tyrannus' part (so far) has been pretty limited from the general public's eye; and the Jedi Council seems to be keepng the whole Sith re-emergence real hush-hush...

    I reckon most people think that Vader is the first and only Sith for generations. I've always thought that the Emperor's ability to downplay the whole Sith thing publicly--whilst still doing his Dark Side deeds privately--is what has made him able to convince so many worlds to agree to accept his New Order.

    Surely if he came out and said, "Yo, check me out: SIth Lord!" most people would be thinking, "This guy is probably a baddie..."

    Comments?
    ~~Matt~~

  3. #3
    Dark Lord, and the Fourth Centurion, of the HotShot Quiz
    Join Date
    August 2003
    Location
    Roaming the Tombs of the Sith Lords on Korriban
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    I'd say to most of the general public the Sith are the boogey-men of the Star Wars galaxy. Over the eons, the Sith have become mythological to most people. In the "Fall of the Sith Empire" graphic novel most people dismiss Jori Daragon's stories about the true Sith (and their impending invasion), because to the general public the Sith had become nothing more than that--stories and legends. That's why the Republic at large is caught off-guard when the true Sith actually show up...

    I'd say that after the Battle of Ruusan, that the Sith went back into obscurity, as it comes as a shock to the Jedi Council in TPM that a new Sith (Darth Maul) has been encountered. They virtually believed that the Sith had been completely wiped out until then.

    While a few people know of the name "Darth Sidious," I'd say that, as of right now, Palpatine and Dooku are the only two that know Sidious' true identity.

    Darth Fierce
    Last edited by Darth Fierce; 4 January 2005 at 05:28 AM.
    Currently Working On:
    --The Holonet Alien Anthology
    --The Friends and Foes Compendium
    In loving memory of P.C., we who knew you will never forget you...

  4. #4
    Moderator
    Join Date
    February 2000
    Location
    Outer Heaven
    Posts
    8,367

    Default

    Originally posted by Darth Fierce
    While a few people know of the name "Darth Sidious," I'd say that, as of right now, Palpatine and Dooku are the only two that know Sidious' true identity.

    Darth Fierce
    But in the Rebellion era?
    Vader (d'uh!)...Tarkin...anyone else?

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    November 2001
    Location
    Rolling Meadows, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,215

    Default

    I think the whole Jedi council is soon to find out who Palpatine really is. Obi-Wan already has the story thata Sith is in charge of the senate, it's only a matter of time before he really believes it and the pieces are put together.
    Online Journal - Conversion Specialist, Writer, Web Editor Spleen Guide Conversionist
    Arms and Equipment Guide Supplement Organizational Editor/Artist
    Religion Guide - Co-Author | Dice Theory - Author

  6. #6
    Dark Lord, and the Fourth Centurion, of the HotShot Quiz
    Join Date
    August 2003
    Location
    Roaming the Tombs of the Sith Lords on Korriban
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    Originally posted by Ronin


    But in the Rebellion era?
    Vader (d'uh!)...Tarkin...anyone else?
    Don't forget Obi-Wan and Yoda...

    My point was that the general populace probably doesn't think that much about Sith during the Rise of the Empire era...the non-Jedi that probably learn that Palpatine is a Sith during said time include Padme, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and a few others.

    Darth Fierce
    Currently Working On:
    --The Holonet Alien Anthology
    --The Friends and Foes Compendium
    In loving memory of P.C., we who knew you will never forget you...

  7. #7
    Rules Lawyer
    Join Date
    December 2001
    Location
    Victoria, BC
    Posts
    1,099

    Default

    Actually, by the time the Jedi know, everyone will know.

    Unfortunately, 99% of the galaxy wouldn't give a flying Ranat's butt what he calls himself. To the vast majority of people, he's simply "The Emperor" and the one in charge, who either "brought order to the galaxy" or untold tyranny.

    And, I think most people wouldn't comprehend the scope of his power since I doubt he gives regular displays of his power ( that's what Vader's for, and his iron fist can be tagged onto those "vile" sorcerous Jedi ).

    Thus, most don't understand what it truly means to be as "Sith" and probably wouldn't care either for that matter.
    I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.

    The Men's Prayer - The Red Green Show

    I have a Star Wars.com blog. Look for it under Master Dao Rin

  8. #8

    Default

    If the general populace doesn't seem to believe in Jedi any more (only 20 years after they were openly running around swinging lightsabers in nightclubs on _Coruscant_), why would they regard the Sith as anything other than fables?

    I mean, really--"sad devotion to your ancient religion"? 20 years is ancient history? Or Han Solo, who snubs Obi-Wan's explanations about the Force, but is old enough that he should remember the Jedi during the Clone Wars from personal experience?

    So, like I said--if people are willing to dismiss what they've seen themselves as "ancient," what do you think they'll think of something they haven't even seen themselves (i.e., Palpatine swinging a lightsaber)?
    ...equal opportunity heretic.

  9. #9
    Experienced Player
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    My Imagination
    Posts
    114

    Default

    Ok...so i just had a thought about how folks in the rebellion era remember the Jedi. Your right...Han is old enough to have seen them fight in the clone wars. The imperials on the death star were also around in that time frame.

    So what if the folks that have seen them do remember & believe? I know everyone says they don't, but follow me on this one.

    We all say and do things we don't believe in for one reason or another. If you were a kid (I'm thinking Solo would have ben 10-13 or some such around the clone wars...correct me if i'm wrong) andwere watching the news on the holonet (or seeing a battle in person if you were unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time) a large part of what your seeing is the Jedi, who you've always looked up to getting slaughtered. After the wars are over the few jedi that are surviving (like Obi-Wan) go into hiding.

    you grow up...you meet one of them...you get the chance to listen to what their teachings are...and your emotional reaction to them having let you down all those years ago...you lash out...make cracks about "hoky weapons & aincent religons"....

    although the imperials in the briefing (and the rest of the world as well likely) are likely having similar reactions in some ways...coupled with the fact that the Emperor discourages belief in the fource (with the strange exception of Vader)...they likely all remember quite well...but don't talk about it....

    or am I just quite full of it? anyway let me knwo what you think...
    “You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.”-Marcus (Babylon 5)

  10. #10
    Duct-tape Jedi Master of the Possum Order
    Join Date
    June 2003
    Location
    Kent, Washington
    Posts
    1,018

    Default

    In TPM, I seem to remember that Obi and Qui-Gon didn't know what a Sith was. After the fight with Darth Maul on Tatooine, I thought that Qui-Gon made a comment to someone that he didn't know who Darth Maul was, but that he was "trained in the Jedi arts". If not all Jedi know what a Sith is, then I'm guessing that very few commoners, if any, know what the heck a Sith is.

    Because no one besides the Jedi know what Sith are, when Darth Vader comes out and titles himself "Lord of the Sith", not many people are going to react. Besides, I doubt people would care much about what Darth Vader titled himself as long as he didn't choke them. What's more, if a scary dude like Vader wanted to title himself Lord of the Flourescent Light Bulb, who's gonna argue with him. With Vader, I would think most people don't really care about what he calls himself as long as he stays well away from them.

    Whats more, since the Jedi are all in hiding or destroyed, no one is around to tell people that Sith are the "bad guys". On top of that, just about everyone thinks the Force is a "hokey religion". Sure, Vader walked around choking people with the Force and preaching about the power of the Force, but Tarkin and the rest who had actually seen him do stuff didn't pay him much heed.
    "Quando Omni Flunkis Moritati" (If all else fails, play dead)
    - Possum Lodge motto, The Red Green Show

  11. #11

    Default

    See, JediJester, that's the part I just don't get. Tarkin and others who've seen Force users in action still persist in labelling those beliefs "hokey old religion."

    Both Han Solo and the officer who denigrated Vader's beliefs on the Death Star (and got choked--sorry, I'm not enough of a geek to know his name off hand) were old enough to have been around when the Jedi were active.

    I mean, if *I* saw someone levitating stuff, I'd certainly not dismiss their abilities and/or belief system. I'm not Christian, but if I'd actually seen Jesus healing people and walking on water, I don't think I'd dismiss him so easily, even thirty years later.

    "Oh, that old crazy fool--he walked on water, thought he was special or something...can't believe he was so full of himself." ??? Not likely.
    ...equal opportunity heretic.

  12. #12
    Duct-tape Jedi Master of the Possum Order
    Join Date
    June 2003
    Location
    Kent, Washington
    Posts
    1,018

    Default

    See, JediJester, that's the part I just don't get. Tarkin and others who've seen Force users in action still persist in labelling those beliefs "hokey old religion."
    Let's face it, no matter how well thought out a movie is, there will almost always be something in it that makes you pause and say, "What the...?" The best we can do is explain it as best we can and enjoy the entertainment the movie has to offer.

    The explination I have for their lack of belief in Vader's powers is that he really doesn't use his powers much, other than choking people. But in a world with repulsor lifts, artificial gravity, and force fields, technology could be used to explain Vader's power in their mind. The black armor that Vader always wears could have a bunch of technological gizmos that enable him to choke people from a distance.

    What's more, the Emporer did/is doing all he can to wipe out knowledge of the Jedi and the Force. He wants only himself and a select few to be able to use the "awesome power of the darkside". Since this is the case, who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe the diplomatic man who is running the show or the sadistic maniac who hides in his black armor?

    Anyways, these are the best explinations I can come up with for that discrepincy. Feel free to come up with a better one .
    "Quando Omni Flunkis Moritati" (If all else fails, play dead)
    - Possum Lodge motto, The Red Green Show

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    March 2000
    Location
    Ashtabula, OH, U.S.
    Posts
    1,179

    Default

    No one refers to Vader as "Darth Vader" in the OT, they all refer to him as "Lord Vader". The only person in the OT who referred to him as "Darth Vader" was Princess Leia on the Tantive IV (I may be wrong).

    Leia: "Darth Vader. Only you'd be so bold."

    Everyone else says Lord Vader.

    Lando: "Lord Vader we only use this facility for carbon freezing..."
    Tarkin: "Lord Vader release him..."
    Admiral Ozzel: "Lord Vader the fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we are preparing too..."
    Admiral Piett: "Thank you, Lord Vader."
    Admiral Piett: "Lord Vader, the Emperor demands you make contact with him..."
    Moff Jerrod: "Lord Vader, what an unexpected pleasure this is, we are honored by your presence..."

    No one else referred to him as Darth Vader. It was always Lord Vader. So more than likely no one knows the Sith connection. Infact Leia's reference may have gone over the heads of the Imperials with him at the time. Though I do believe that they know Lord Vader was in/or had connections to, the Jedi Order.

    About Sidious, everyone knew him as Senator Palpatine, than Chancellor Palpatine. No one knew him as Senator Sidious or Chancellor Sidious. So Palpatine is Palpatine to the galaxy. Only Yoda, Ben, Bail and Vader (maybe a few others) know who Palpatine really is. I doubt he made a public anouncement that he is a Sith Lord. Infact it seems to me that he went to a lot of trouble to protect his secret identity, to a point where he had two personalities. When he was in the senate halls speaking to the senators and even to the Jedi he seemed to be just what he was. The Supreme Chancellor to the Old Republic. When he was with his darkside underlings, hosever, he took on a totally different demeanor and attitude to a point where he was no longer Palpatine.

    Plus by the time of ANH, it has been twenty years since the clone wars, I doubt many of the Imperial officers on the DS were even involved in the Clone Wars. Plus, by the Phantom Menace, the Jedi were on a major decline by than too, so many beings of the galaxy lived out their entire lives never seeing a Jedi, let alone a Jedi in action. So too many people of the Republic, even the Jedi Order was slowly becoming more of a myth or legend than actual fact, by than. It also made it that much easier for the Emperor to stamp out the last remembrance of their existance.
    When you wish on a falling star, dreams can come true.

    Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which will destroy all life.

    Than your pretty much hosed no matter what you wished for. Unless your wish was death by meteor, than you can die soundly knowing that wishes do come true.

  14. #14

    Default

    Originally posted by Fred Getce
    No one refers to Vader as "Darth Vader" in the OT, they all refer to him as "Lord Vader". The only person in the OT who referred to him as "Darth Vader" was Princess Leia on the Tantive IV (I may be wrong).

    Leia: "Darth Vader. Only you'd be so bold."

    Everyone else says Lord Vader.

    Lando: "Lord Vader we only use this facility for carbon freezing..."
    Tarkin: "Lord Vader release him..."
    Admiral Ozzel: "Lord Vader the fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we are preparing too..."
    Admiral Piett: "Thank you, Lord Vader."
    Admiral Piett: "Lord Vader, the Emperor demands you make contact with him..."
    Moff Jerrod: "Lord Vader, what an unexpected pleasure this is, we are honored by your presence..."

    No one else referred to him as Darth Vader. It was always Lord Vader. So more than likely no one knows the Sith connection. Infact Leia's reference may have gone over the heads of the Imperials with him at the time. Though I do believe that they know Lord Vader was in/or had connections to, the Jedi Order.
    All the speakers (excepting Lando) are Imperials and have to use the appropriate title. The Imperial Era also seems to be rather feudal, with various Lords and such ruling over their corner of the Emipre so Vader having some sort of Lordship (even tho it's not realistically a Landed Title) would place him on a social par with these "lesser leaders".

    There is proof in ANH that at least some people know Vader was a Jedi. Prior to being Force-choked, the officer in the DS briefing room states as if it were common knowledge (at least amongst those present) "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn't produce the stolen plans, nor given you Clairvoyance enough to...ack, urrrgh". Moff Tarkin also tells Vader regarding Jedi "You, my friend, are the last of their kind. Their fire has gone out of the galaxy."

    So at the very least, Senior Imperial Leadership know of the Jedi and Vader's having been one of the Jedi Order. Senior Leadership is also usually the only ones in the military who would've been in service 20+ years and may have served during the Clone Wars.

    About Sidious, everyone knew him as Senator Palpatine, than Chancellor Palpatine. No one knew him as Senator Sidious or Chancellor Sidious. So Palpatine is Palpatine to the galaxy. Only Yoda, Ben, Bail and Vader (maybe a few others) know who Palpatine really is. I doubt he made a public anouncement that he is a Sith Lord. Infact it seems to me that he went to a lot of trouble to protect his secret identity, to a point where he had two personalities. When he was in the senate halls speaking to the senators and even to the Jedi he seemed to be just what he was. The Supreme Chancellor to the Old Republic. When he was with his darkside underlings, hosever, he took on a totally different demeanor and attitude to a point where he was no longer Palpatine.
    It also leaves open the possibility of Sidious being a Sith Spirit who attached itself to Palpatine and would only take full control of the body as needed. Much of the time it would likely be subtly steering Palpatine into doing its dirty work, and staying off the "Jedi-dar" much as Exar Kun did in the novels. Warping an Upstanding Senator into a Darkside Devotee would probably be something a Dark Lord would revel in.

    By RotJ, if not earlier, Palpatine is fully his own Darksider. In the beginning however, there is room for outside influences to come into play, setting and guiding him along that Dark Path.
    Last edited by Vanger Chevane; 15 January 2005 at 09:31 PM.
    First Law of GMing: Semper Gumby
    Show me someone who has never said "It's good to be Evil", I'll show you someone who's never GM'd.

    Wisdom is a lot like the Blues. You have to suffer to get it right.

  15. #15
    Dark Lord, and the Fourth Centurion, of the HotShot Quiz
    Join Date
    August 2003
    Location
    Roaming the Tombs of the Sith Lords on Korriban
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    IIRC, Leia refers to Vader as "Lord Vader" in ANH, just as Lando and the Imperials. The only people that refer to Vader as "Darth" in the OT are Obi-Wan and Luke (and Yoda, IIRC). Unless I've forgotten something, even the Emperor doesn't refer to Vader as "Darth" in the movies (at this point). Strange, considering the fact that he does refer to Maul as "Darth" in TPM.

    Tarkin's comment to Vader in ANH may suggest that he (Tarkin) doesn't even know the truth about the Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious connection. It's quite possible that Tarkin knows that Vader is a Sith, but doesn't quite understand how the Emperor can keep control of him (Vader)...

    Darth Fierce
    Last edited by Darth Fierce; 14 January 2005 at 05:37 PM.
    Currently Working On:
    --The Holonet Alien Anthology
    --The Friends and Foes Compendium
    In loving memory of P.C., we who knew you will never forget you...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •