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Thread: What makes the Emperor officiall evil?

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    Default What makes the Emperor officiall evil?

    I am wondering, especially since we know how Palpi got into office, why people seem to hate him at the end of ROTJ - where we see his stature getting thrown over by the crowd. What did he do that changed him from being the cheered at and applauded rescueer of civilization and order and security to a man that is hated? I could hardly think of anything in the movies - at least that gets public. alderaan's fate is unknown, nobody knows that Palpi is a Sith... On the other hand at least the military knows that Vader is a Lord...
    "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

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    Moderator boccelounge's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes the Emperor officiall evil?

    Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
    I am wondering, especially since we know how Palpi got into office, why people seem to hate him at the end of ROTJ - where we see his stature getting thrown over by the crowd. What did he do that changed him from being the cheered at and applauded rescueer of civilization and order and security to a man that is hated? I could hardly think of anything in the movies - at least that gets public. alderaan's fate is unknown, nobody knows that Palpi is a Sith... On the other hand at least the military knows that Vader is a Lord...
    What makes him "officially" evil? I'd say "Lucasfilm, Ltd."

    But seriously:

    I'd say it's clear that despite the "thunderous applause" at his "declaration of Empire," even at that point there are a lot of people who see past his manipulations and lies, and realize the dangers and evil inherent in this move toward autocracy. They're a distinct minority at that point, but their numbers grow constantly.

    After that, I think it's easy to fill in the blanks: during a time of perceived "crisis," citizens are often willing to give up democratic freedoms in exchange for "strong leadership." But when the crisis has abated, a more objective and sober view takes hold, and the citizenry sees the autocrat for what he is: a violent, evil, self-serving tyrant.

    Adding to that, it's likely that Alderaan was only the largest of the atrocities of Palpatine's "New Order." We can imagine that between Episodes III and IV, there are all sorts of attacks on life, liberty, and happiness throughout the Empire. And then a cycle of resistance and reaction takes hold: every atrocity breeds rebellion, and every act of rebellion makes Palpatine crack down even harder, and the resentment against his rule grows...

    (Coincidentally, I have high hopes that we'll see exactly this sort of thing in the proposed television series.)

    By the time of Endor, I'd posit, the Emperor was almost universally (well, "galactically") reviled, and the Alliance had gained enough legitimacy to be seen as a viable alternative. So, when the chance to overthrow the Empire came, the people were ready.



    And "whew!": I got through this response without making any snide references to current US politics (well, except this one. )
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    Where is the fate of Alderaan "unknown"? I'd think that if a large planet like Alderaan just suddenly disappeared, people would begin to wonder. Doubtless, that alone would make a lot of people think.

    And thinking of real-life politics, we can point to many, many dictators who were cheered when they came to power, but by the end of their reign were hated. Lenin comes to mind, and Hitler, Mussolini...the list goes on.
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    Moderator boccelounge's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Originally posted by Corr Terek
    Where is the fate of Alderaan "unknown"? I'd think that if a large planet like Alderaan just suddenly disappeared, people would begin to wonder. Doubtless, that alone would make a lot of people think.
    I can't speak for Ronen Tal-Ravis, but I took this to refer to the theory that the Empire might have tried to pin the destruction of Alderaan on the Alliance. This has, of course, been debated in other threads; for the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters-- even if some people don't know that the Empire's to blame for Alderaan, there are surely countless other "local" atrocities that would get them riled up against Palpatine.
    "Half the fun of God's forgiveness is having reasons to ask for it."

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    IIRC the Empire did originally try to pin the destruction of Alderaan on the Rebellion...but the story fell apart and they had to come up with another story (Alderaan was destroyed because it was a rebel safehaven, or something).
    I'm sorry that I don't remembe the specifics of each story...but I do remember that there are two.

    Just going by the films, I'd agree that as the years went on, people started to realise that the Empire was bad, and all the military and security wasn't necessary.

    If you take into account the EU (or even just some of it) then there's the suppression of alien species, the New Order's favouritism of humans, COMPNOR, alien slavery, etc.

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    trying to pin the destruction of alderran on the rebellion is rediculas. Alderran was blown up by the death star as an example.

    the empire initally trumpted "HEY LOOK AT THIS! DO AS YOU'RE TOLD OR WE DO THIS TO YOU"

    furthermore at the same time the senate was disbanded. IMHO the disbanding of the senate was the final straw for many, it ended the illusion that the empire was in any way shape of form for the people

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    Moderator boccelounge's Avatar
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    Default Remember Alderaan! Or Not!

    Originally posted by Ronin
    IIRC the Empire did originally try to pin the destruction of Alderaan on the Rebellion...
    Originally posted by BrianDavion
    trying to pin the destruction of alderran on the rebellion is rediculas...
    Yes... but as I said, this has been exhaustively debated elsewhere, and isn't really germane to this thread-- with or without Alderaan, the Emperor must've been seen as a pretty rotten guy if so many people were so ready to rejoice his downfall in Episode VI.

    Right?
    "Half the fun of God's forgiveness is having reasons to ask for it."

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    Look at Darth Sidious: a black hole of absolute evil, who cares only for his own power and would subjugate the cosmos to his unnatural will. Neither freedom, nor safety, nor hope, nor breath would long survive in the Empire of the Sith under the opaque shadow of the dark side.

    That dystopia is what the galaxy was like when the Sith ruled it before they were defeated a thousand years before the films and the Republic restored. Palpatine doesn't get there: it takes him 19 years to finish the Death Star and disband the Senate, and it would take decades more for his rule of terror to be established. Even so, I don't think the EU has come close to taking seriously how bleakly, mythologically terrible slave-life is, or was becoming, under Imperial rule.

    Just as the Jedi are a heightened, exaggerated fictional form of heroism, so the Empire is a worse, more evil and more hopeless, form of the tyranny exhibited less completely by historical dictatorships. It is the Evil Empire -- what Philip Dick called the Black Iron Prison in VALIS: just authority perverted to the service of unlimited, unnatural black-hole greed. It is everything that's wrong, writ large at the level of society -- and when it's destroyed, when the cosmos is reactualized by the hero's redemption, you bet the universe is gonna cheer.

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    Talking Episode X: Shadow of the Dark Side

    Originally posted by Faraer
    Darth Sidious: a black hole of absolute evil, who cares only for his own power and would subjugate the cosmos to his unnatural will. Neither freedom, nor safety, nor hope, nor breath would long survive in the Empire of the Sith under the opaque shadow of the dark side.
    Wow! Nicely said! This is purple prose worthy of "opening scrawl" text! I might have to write a new campaign episode just to make use of this (with your permission)...

    And the rest of the post was good too...
    "Half the fun of God's forgiveness is having reasons to ask for it."

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    Default Re: Re: What makes the Emperor officiall evil?

    Chello!

    Originally posted by boccelounge
    [B]

    What makes him "officially" evil? I'd say "Lucasfilm, Ltd."
    Naw, it's because Obi Wan says, "But, Anakin, Palpatine is EVIL!"



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    "But from my point of view...the Jedi are evil..."

    Ug..still the worst line ever...

    Although, it is true. Like my other thread...the only thing that makes the Emperor or the Empire evil is the point of view that the Rebellion has. Yeah, they enslaved races and persecuted less wealthy systems...but they are just like other corrupted governments.
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    No, I think "Are you an angel" still takes tha cake...

    Anyway, Palpi is evil for three reaons:

    He is a Sith
    He is a hearless and powerhungry tyrant
    He is used as a plot device
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    Originally posted by FlipDog 2000
    "But from my point of view...the Jedi are evil..."

    Ug..still the worst line ever...

    Although, it is true. Like my other thread...the only thing that makes the Emperor or the Empire evil is the point of view that the Rebellion has. Yeah, they enslaved races and persecuted less wealthy systems...but they are just like other corrupted governments.
    Well, the line does serve its purpose: showing us just how twisted and just plain wrong Anakin's views have become. Palpatine's insidious (get it?) manipulations and Anakin's own naivete/arrogance have profoundly warped his views of reality.

    And, despite his later "certain point of view" relativism, Obi-Wan shows his true nobility by holding fast to certain absolute truths. Enslavement and persecution aren't "corruption"-- they're evil!

    These movies aren't that hard to figure out-- the Bad Guys are truly and deeply Evil, period.
    "Half the fun of God's forgiveness is having reasons to ask for it."

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    Originally posted by FlipDog 2000
    "But from my point of view...the Jedi are evil..."

    Ug..still the worst line ever...

    Although, it is true. Like my other thread...the only thing that makes the Emperor or the Empire evil is the point of view that the Rebellion has. Yeah, they enslaved races and persecuted less wealthy systems...but they are just like other corrupted governments.
    Actually, i thought that was one of his best lines in the film..
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  15. #15

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    But what made public opinion change from applauding him when he proclaimed the Enmpire and then suddenly they hate him.
    "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

    “With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. The first time any man’s freedom is trodden on, we are all damaged.” Judge Eron Sati, ST TNG ‘The Drumhead’

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