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Thread: **Spoliers** More thoughts on the direction of the Legacy of the Force series

  1. #151
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    If there is anything I take issue with its how each author has a different take on Ben as well.

    They have taken angst and upped it a few notches with him. I see him as naive when it comes to things that are obviously evil things he has to do. I just find it real hard to believe he would do half the things he is doing to please Jacen.

    As far as the other characters throughout this series and even the NJO is how they reuse catch phrases from the movies. I just groan when I read them when they slip it in, it would be different if it were "Hey do you remember when we did this? And then you said... Blah"

    Instead they make the phrase kind of fit the situation and it seems forced and obvious and if I were sitting there actually watching this as a movie I would feel like yelling out how dorky that just sounded.

    Anyone else feel that way? It is probably just me.
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    Originally posted by Darth Jerrod
    Anyone else feel that way? It is probably just me.
    Yeah. I just felt the same way while reading the Swarm War trilogy. It's very annoying and that's why I didn't enjoy the books the way I thought I would.
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  3. #153
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    I really WANT to read the books just so I know what is going on. Some of the stuff I like but a lot of the characters are just written to be so dumb I feel that we are being treated to a B movie.

    Some of the plots are transparent and I want to be there to slap some of these people.

    Things I am sick of.
    - Anything written in Mandoa. Cool you have a language for the Mandolorians but come on I dont need it thrown in.
    - I like Boba more after finding out he was a clone of Jango. I like that whole angle. But do not drag the Mandolorian angle on for too long.
    - Ben... either make him cool and stop having him be a wuss. Now that Mara is dead, he knows Jacen has been doing things to him and is acting evil. Perhaps he will get past Lumiya being tricking Jacen into doing bad things and get a grip in fact everyone...
    - Jedi, Luke, Hand and Leia... Get a grip on what is going on. You are all on the verge of saying Jacen is bad. Admit it get on with it, put all the pieces together.

    Seriously a lot of the stuff going on in this book would rate well in a day time soap opera. They all know stuff they all want to tell someone but the right time never shows up because they get distracted. What is this Star Wars or All My Children?

    - Make the characters believable. Do not mask movie line envy by fitting the lines in, albeit very korny, into situations where they can say a modified version of the movie line.

    The ONLY saving grace is that it is not Kevin J Anderson writting these books. Because I do not know if I could handle in every chapter a recap of the events that have lead us up to each characters life at this exact moment. Yes I know Wedge was at the first Death Star and that he helped blow up the 2nd Deathstar and that he has a daughter and a wife and he was a great rebel ace pilot, and then remind me 2 chapters again when another event requiring his piloting skills suddenly makes us reread the this is your life section of the book again.

    Treat us as Fans who know and understand the events of the GFFA

    In fact if I were to write a story based on the original characters and concepts of Star Wars that first book might reintroduce the characters and set the stage for the rest of the series and then respect the readers with characters who we recognise from the movies.

    I can not belive that Luke Skywalker, the Grand Master of the Jedi is so indecisive about life, his son and the role of the Jedi.

    Leia and Han their son has tried to kill them. He has set them up. He has killed Boba's daughter. He is acting very non-jedi like and has preformed a coup in the GA. When is Han going to spank his boy? The Han in the movies would do that. Leia has gotten soft as well, boo hoo get over it you know what he has done tell Han to spank him if not, do it yourself. To go from grabbing a blaster on the death star and forcing everyone into the trash compactor to being wishy washy about her boy trying to send them to their maker.

    I am going to miss Mara. I never liked her much in the NJO books and I thought she was an idiot until the last book when she started acting like Mara the Emperors Hand again. Redemption comes I guess to those characters who are just about to die.

    I thought Anakin Solo was lame up until the book where he died. But now I do not like him because they make him out to be such a hero in the books now that they had to kill him off.

    ok I am done ranting now. It is a shame I like the Legacy comic way better than the novels. Maybe LFL should hire the comic writers to write the stories.
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  4. #154
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    Originally posted by Darth Jerrod
    ISeriously a lot of the stuff going on in this book would rate well in a day time soap opera. They all know stuff they all want to tell someone but the right time never shows up because they get distracted. What is this Star Wars or All My Children?
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  5. #155
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    - Anything written in Mandoa. Cool you have a language for the Mandolorians but come on I dont need it thrown in.
    - I like Boba more after finding out he was a clone of Jango. I like that whole angle. But do not drag the Mandolorian angle on for too long.
    I agree. Sure, I think it's great that we now have another detailed and increasingly exhaustive language for the uber-geeks to chew on. (Not to mention rousing songs from the RC video game soundtrack.) And I can appreciate its inclusion in the books, but it's getting close to being overdone. Same with Boba being the leader of an organization he feels he only partly belongs to. We get that he doesn't understand the language, so we can move on to him actually pursuing his objectives. That's what Boba's best at, any way...

    - Ben... either make him cool and stop having him be a wuss. Now that Mara is dead, he knows Jacen has been doing things to him and is acting evil.
    This is one of the points that, IMO can redeem this series if done correctly. It's been said in this thread that LotF parallels the 6-movie saga in many ways. This is the point where Ben can truly begin his hero's journey, shake off the shackles of manipulation the bad guys have put on him, and turn into something more than yet another whiny son of Skywalker. His grandfather never really grew out of that, and his father traded in his whining for a Hamlet-like indecision. Perhaps some of his mother can come out in him, and I think that would be pretty sweet.

    Seriously a lot of the stuff going on in this book would rate well in a day time soap opera.
    Actually, this has come up in a lot of my discussions recently. It seems that whether it's in novels, TV or comic books, once the story's main premise is resolved/exhausted, for some reason writers always fall back on seeing how many different romantic permutations they can come up with between characters. "X and Y had great chemistry in season 1, so let's see what happens if they get together, only let's maintain the conflict by having one of them secretly be in love with Z as well." Soap operas. Exactly.

    Do not mask movie line envy by fitting the lines in, albeit very korny, into situations where they can say a modified version of the movie line.
    I agree. While I find the cliche lines enjoyable (our character scripts always seem to have "I have a bad feeling about this" included somewhere) it too can be overdone. I think the Star Wars universe has a taste of that campy element where cliche lines can come up, but not at the expense of giving the characters whole new original golden nuggets of dialogue.

    It is a shame I like the Legacy comic way better than the novels. Maybe LFL should hire the comic writers to write the stories.
    Actually, I don't see much of a difference between the two. It should be known that I enjoy the Legacy comics immensely, but they have as much potential to devolve into "soap opera" as much as the books are. Scantily clad baddies and angst-ridden Skywalkers, long lost militant mothers and shifts of governmental power are as much a cliche as Jedi love triangles and superweapons. Eventually these plots will run out of steam, and the producers will be giving a green light for new novels/stories, so the writers will be scratching their heads for new plotlines and will scrape the barrel for those overused romantic pinballs games we always see when a story has grown past its prime.
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  6. #156
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    What I find to be the most overused plot point in this series is the whole galactic war scenario. Since 32 BBY to 40 ABY, the galaxy has gone through 3 major galactic wars (Clone Wars, Galactic Civil War and Yuuzhan Vong War), numerable minor wars or uprisings (Blockade of Naboo, Kilik Conflict, Yevetha Purge, and the Almania Uprising to name a few) and with another in the process (Confederate-GA War) and another coming 100 years (GA-Empire War), I have to ask myself, is this the most dysfunctional galaxy ever?

    It seems as though the authors are enjoying making big wars and crushing the galaxies denizin's (sp?) time after time again. For goodness sakes, at least there were 1000 years between each sith uprising (I mean this in a general sense, some of the sith wars included smaller conflicts that spanned during the "peace" inbetween).

    My point is this: While great big wars are fine, or even small wars and inter-species conflicts have there place, for goodness sake it is getting old when its overused over such a short timespan. The same problems seems to reo-ccur in each war, caused by the same problems. You would think that by 40 ABY they would have had sufficient time and people would have beaten the hell out of each other enough that they would work things out.

    Rant over.

    Cj49
    "You sort of see these recurring themes where a democracy turns itself into a dictatorship, and it always seems to happen kind of in the same way, with the same kinds of issues, and threats from the outside, needing more control. A democratic body, a senate, not being able to function properly because everybody's squabbling, there's corruption."
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  7. #157
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    Yeah, that's a delicate balance to strike. This is Star Wars after all. But how is it that a Republic can exist peacefully for 1000 years when the time before it and the time after were fraught with galaxy spanning war. Governments turn over so fast that you can grow up in one government and live your young adult life through a completely different one, and live out the rest of your days in a totally new third one.

    There's got to be some stability!

    I think that's why a lot of my role playing shies away from the mainstream of galactiv politics and tends to focus on the fringers. They can have incredible character arcs and plots and not necessarily change the face of the galaxy forever.
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  8. #158
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    Originally posted by Darth Jerrod
    [B]If there is anything I take issue with its how each author has a different take on Ben as well.

    They have taken angst and upped it a few notches with him. I see him as naive when it comes to things that are obviously evil things he has to do. I just find it real hard to believe he would do half the things he is doing to please Jacen.
    Being that most of what he has had for training in the ways of the force came from Jacen who is most definatly not the best and brightest out there, i can easily see why that is..
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  9. #159
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    Did you know that following World War II Italy had 47 governments in 42 years?

    One major conflict can have a destabalizing effect on a large area for a long time.

    However i do agree with you mostly CJ49. After a while the whole 'Oh no! The Galaxy is under threat from assorted war-mongering and power-hungry bad guys' line does get a bit old after a while.

    However it must be difficult to continually come up with storylines that are interesting to the reader and divergent at the same time.

    I know that i personally was beginning to get a little blase with the SW books up until the NJO series. There seemed to be too many boring side adventures that had no particular purpose - like The Crystal Star - i shudder to think of that book . The NJO series i found enjoyable - primarily for the reason that it featured bad guys that were so different from anything that had been dealt with before (and i know this is a major reason why so many dislike the series).

    And it seems now that the progression of books from that point on has dealt mainly with the ability of the Jedi to adapt and control their power amidst difficult circumstances.

    All the side adventures now seem to be expansions on stuff that happened during the Rise of the Empire or during the Clone Wars - which are interesting as background and character development but little else.

    Just my 2 cred

    Iz
    Last edited by IzVenjari; 18 July 2007 at 03:07 PM.

  10. #160
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    It's difficult, because as others have pointed out, the name of the series is Star Wars. Eliminate the wars and you're left with... what? However, I'm also of the opinion that it just doesn't ring true to say, "Okay, this Republic stood for over a thousand years, then there was a hiccup, but then balance was restored" if the "balance" isn't going to be a lasting peace. While the plot line of the "Legacy" series is intriguing (and by that I mean both the novels and the comics), it still cheapens the accomplishments of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. Whether the prophecy referred to the father or the son, the Skywalker destiny was to restore balance to the Force. Apparently neither was truly able to do so in his own lifetime. In other words, by creating Cade Skywalker, the writers have made Luke Skywalker a failure.

  11. #161
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    In other words, by creating Cade Skywalker, the writers have made Luke Skywalker a failure.
    Unless Luke's destiny was to help his father see the light and then reestablish the Jedi order. If that's the case, and Luke's function within the ebb and flow of the Force was really just a holding pan until the Jedi could get on its feet again, then I'd say he fulfills that destiny rather well. Cade's role in the legacy, then, seems more one of healing.

    And balance can be a fickle thing, too. Anakin/Luke could have brought balance to the Force, but there was nothing in the prophecy saying that it would be perfectly stabilized for long after. Sure, the re-emergence of the Sith cheapens the efforts of the "chosen one," but I wouldn't say they're totally negated.

    There's also the notion that the Sith order started by Jacen was more of a "poser" group; wannabes who are little more than a shadow of the, um, greater shadow of the Sith.
    Last edited by Jedi_Shadow; 18 July 2007 at 04:23 PM.
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  12. #162
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    Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
    It's difficult, because as others have pointed out, the name of the series is Star Wars. Eliminate the wars and you're left with... what? However, I'm also of the opinion that it just doesn't ring true to say, "Okay, this Republic stood for over a thousand years, then there was a hiccup, but then balance was restored" if the "balance" isn't going to be a lasting peace. While the plot line of the "Legacy" series is intriguing (and by that I mean both the novels and the comics), it still cheapens the accomplishments of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. Whether the prophecy referred to the father or the son, the Skywalker destiny was to restore balance to the Force. Apparently neither was truly able to do so in his own lifetime. In other words, by creating Cade Skywalker, the writers have made Luke Skywalker a failure.
    Your point about war and conflict being important to Star Wars is noted, and while conflict should not be taken out of Star Wars, you can not keep have cosmic wars that consume and destroy the galaxy like this.

    And your second point is indeed right. The whole re-rise of the Sith seems cliche considering Luke was to bring balance to the force with the Death of Palpatine and Vader. I enjoyed the NJO a lot because it did not cheapen Lukes victory over the force in regard to balance. Yes, there were dark siders (the nightsisters from Destiny Star for an example) and bad beings (the Yuuzhan Vong), but there was not great power of the dark side (a.k.a. the Sith) returning from no where to cause havoc because Del Rey ran out of solid plot points.

    Sometimes the greatest villains are those who are not magical, but is a being without the force. We all know Thrawn, Zsinj and Ysanna Isard. But I digress...

    Cj49
    Last edited by CaamasiJedi49; 18 July 2007 at 09:33 PM.
    "You sort of see these recurring themes where a democracy turns itself into a dictatorship, and it always seems to happen kind of in the same way, with the same kinds of issues, and threats from the outside, needing more control. A democratic body, a senate, not being able to function properly because everybody's squabbling, there's corruption."
    ―George Lucas

    Co-author of the Rise of the Empire Infinities Sourcebook

  13. #163
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    I guess maybe I need to look at "balance" a different way. I've always thought of the balance restored by Anakin and Luke would be a lasting peace, a new era of prosperity for the galaxy. Luke and Anakin, I figured, should be the balance point for an era - with a thousand-generation Republic on either side of them. Apparently that's not what it meant, though, whether that was the original intention of Lucas or not. The New Republic, hardly in balance to the Old Republic, lasted only a few scant decades. Within only a century and some change, the galaxy is again ruled by an Emperor, despite the fact that the Rebellion fought so hard to prevent that. In another few hundred years, will Luke Skywalker have been nothing but a minor blip on the radar of history?

    But again, perhaps I need to look at "balance" differently. And perhaps Luke Skywalker's accomplishments need to be measured in terms other than lasting peace and prosperity.

  14. #164
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    If Lucas says Anakin was the one who brought balance it was Anakin who did it.

    As far as the Sith coming back, it does make sense.

    Some dark power needed to rise as the Jedi gained in power again.

    As far as the current battles go? Well I can not believe how quickly the GA has turned into the Empire when this series began. I mean they had strong arm tactics right away.

    Diplomacy is gone. Lumiya influencing people is IMO nuts but that is me. Jacen using a Droid to figure out how to position the GAG to be in a position to take over.

    And the Jedi are like... Hmm.

    I feel like I am being talked down to, I feel like they are dumbing down Star Wars to an extent. Give the fanboys Boba and the Mando's even though everyone is getting mad they are getting such a big involvement in the story arc.

    Jacen is a wannabe Sith that was produced by a wannabe Sith herself who could never be true sith because of her physical limitations. Yet on Korriban some Sith are making a huge comeback and preparing for war (based on the Legacy comic information)

    The Jedi even Luke are missing the signs of Jacen's rise to power and do nothing to stop him. A Jedi who is now head of state after placing the former head of state under house arrest is not suspicious? A Dark Sider who Luke has had a past with is known to be stalking Jacen and Ben and Jacen suddenly doing questionable things only alarms Luke and Jaina?

    Plot holes a galaxy wide are so apparent I would be run out of my own Game if I ran something like this for my players. They would ask what they did with the real me and to please bring me back.

    I do not think I was ever this upset with the NJO but as I look back I am reminded of things that were upsetting then as well. I did not think the overpowered Vong could be outdone but it has happened. I did not think the whiny Jedi bratz could be overdone again and Ben takes the cake with Jacen falling to the dark side like I had always hoped for him, though it took him long enough.

    yet... I can not wait to read the next book and see what else will make me upset.

    So to bring this back in line with the original intent of this thread.

    - Han shoots and Kills Jacen while sitting at the dinner table. He tosses Leia a coin and apologizes for the mess.

    - Luke says everything is hunky dorry and retires.

    - Ben becomes cooler than Luke and leads the Jedi properly.

    - Jaina marries Fel and they have many many children who's own children will be responcible for bringing down the very government they worked their butt off protecting. Although the saving grace will be they did it with an Empire that was better than the one they took over.

    if you could not tell some of hopes and some are just things I would like to see just so its over with.
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  15. #165
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    Interesting point Darrth Jerrod.

    Cj49
    "You sort of see these recurring themes where a democracy turns itself into a dictatorship, and it always seems to happen kind of in the same way, with the same kinds of issues, and threats from the outside, needing more control. A democratic body, a senate, not being able to function properly because everybody's squabbling, there's corruption."
    ―George Lucas

    Co-author of the Rise of the Empire Infinities Sourcebook

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