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Thread: WotC is NOT renewing Star Wars license

  1. #31
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    While I won't deny that there were some serious canon issues for that film, there were some very good acting "as a whole", except for Chris Pine.
    Of course, the whole concept of the movie was that they were re-establishing canon.
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  2. #32
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    Originally posted by Terras Jadeonar & Raven
    I doubt WOTC would easily or readily give another company permision to use it's 4e based dice system when continuing Star Wars under a different label.
    Nor, honestly, would I want them to.

    d20 is one of the more complex systems around, and the only reason people consider it "entry level" is because the market was saturated during the 3e days with the open publishing license. The cynical side of me wants to believe that was the intention all along, but realistically I understand the about-face was a reaction to watching their profitability walk out the door.

    If someone came to me and asked me where a good point to get their foot in the door with gaming is, I'd point them to L5R, provided they avoid Shugenja (seriously, L5R's magic system is so complex it makes D&D 3.5e look like a sick joke). Or one of the free D6 systems. Something that is only as inherently complicated as the player wants it to be. The primer for L5R is five paragraphs long. That's literally all you have to know to not be floundering around in that system. The primer for D6, depending on setting, is similarly short.

    The primer for d20 games is at least six pages long. Assuming you're playing it vanilla (which nobody does in my experience). That's a huge hurdle you have to surmount to get into it. Trying to get people to play d20 Star Wars -- even people who know how to play d20 (and, indeed, play d20 every few months) -- was like pulling teeth. Out of a gaming circle of 10, only 3 consistently showed any interest in Star Wars. For them, it wasn't the system (in fact, they were just as happy going at it freeform), it was that it was Star Wars. I think that sort of attitude has a lot to do with why WotC won't pick up the license. For the people who want to play Star Wars, they will (period; if nothing else, my homebrewed d20 Future Star Wars proves that not only is it possible, it's also a crowd pleaser to do it yourself). Trying to expand the market isn't Wizards' job, and apparently hasn't been terribly successful.

    Mechanically, d20 has a really interesting niche. It's the closest thing going to MMOs right now. That means it's a real touchstone for that group of gamers. If Wizards can tap that outlet, they can really take advantage of it, which may be part of where D&D4 came from. They did a lot right, but they totally neglected the role-playing side of it, which, when you're at a computer is rather easy to ignore. When you're being anti-social when you're sat down at a table then it's just awkward.

    The problem for Wizards at the moment is that other people are doing their thing, and doing it better.
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  3. #33
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ardent

    Nor, honestly, would I want them to.

    d20 is one of the more complex systems around, and the only reason people consider it "entry level" is because the market was saturated during the 3e days with the open publishing license. The cynical side of me wants to believe that was the intention all along, but realistically I understand the about-face was a reaction to watching their profitability walk out the door.[quote]

    And also their different approach, this time around making the system so that the players are more dependent on the company for new content releases rather than providing the community means of making their own content (doable, but more hassle). Making their dice system proprietary is fine, and don't let other companies buy / use / broker the license. But making it into a total monopoly for complete user dependency is going a bit far IMHO.

    If someone came to me and asked me where a good point to get their foot in the door with gaming is, I'd point them to L5R, provided they avoid Shugenja (seriously, L5R's magic system is so complex it makes D&D 3.5e look like a sick joke). Or one of the free D6 systems. Something that is only as inherently complicated as the player wants it to be. The primer for L5R is five paragraphs long. That's literally all you have to know to not be floundering around in that system. The primer for D6, depending on setting, is similarly short.
    Hadn't tried L5R, but your right, D6 is pretty easy to grasp. I've actually found its more fun to make a character in D6 than in D20, this includes SWSE.

    For them, it wasn't the system (in fact, they were just as happy going at it freeform), it was that it was Star Wars. I think that sort of attitude has a lot to do with why WotC won't pick up the license.
    And free-form is immensely fun too, so as long as everyone keeps it level and fair. On the flipside, sometimes having a dice set adds to the randomness when determining accomplishing a given task.

    For the people who want to play Star Wars, they will (period; if nothing else, my homebrewed d20 Future Star Wars proves that not only is it possible, it's also a crowd pleaser to do it yourself). Trying to expand the market isn't Wizards' job, and apparently hasn't been terribly successful.
    You ever post that at the holonets here by chance?


    Mechanically, d20 has a really interesting niche. It's the closest thing going to MMOs right now. That means it's a real touchstone for that group of gamers. If Wizards can tap that outlet, they can really take advantage of it, which may be part of where D&D4 came from. They did a lot right, but they totally neglected the role-playing side of it, which, when you're at a computer is rather easy to ignore. When you're being anti-social when you're sat down at a table then it's just awkward.
    Yes, and it stands to reason why the WOTC forum community has become so distasteful in my experience. Talk about anti-social gaming, lack of roleplaying, and a more computer MMO style attitude. Whenever I tried helping out in a reply to someone's question, I almost always also brought up the roleplaying aspect for handling the situation. And guy, I tell ya, did I ever get royally snubbed off for bringing up the roleplaying aspect for the scenario. One guy wanted to know about getting pulled out of hyperspace by an unsuspected black hole anomaly. The guy didn't want ideas for roleplaying the scenario, what issues or problems that particular scenario itself introduces; just the dice rolls and skill checks required to get out of it.

    The problem for Wizards at the moment is that other people are doing their thing, and doing it better.
    A wholeheartedly 'no surprise there'

    And given the lack of actual roleplaying emphasis and more hype on hard fast streamline 'arcade' type of ruleset 4e has become, its no surprise. It seems WOTC's new design is geared more as a pen & paper version of an MMO game than actual roleplaying.

    When the attitude is more about 'rollin that dice' for a skill check than about roleplaying the situation, people might as well just install an MMO game on their computer.

    And therein is an irony in itself, since the pen & paper roleplaying game is supposed to offer and be what every computer game is not , nor could offer.
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  4. #34
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    With this announcement I've seen a lot of negativity of the D20 system. I really don't know why.

    Maybe it's just hitting out at WOTC, that I can understand. I won't be buying any more of their products once Star Wars ends. But despite how much I'm hating WOTC right now I still say that the Saga books are excellent. Although much of that could (and should) be attributed to Rodney.

    I like D20, it does it's job and has given me lots of happy gaming moments. A mate of mine says it's open to abuse. I disagree, a game system doesn't get abused, a GM does. And it's only broken if the GM lets it be. And I'll continue to play D20, be it Star Wars Saga or Pathfinder RPG.
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  5. #35
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    Well, it's a bit of a suprise to me, but I can understand the reasoning behind WotC's move to let go of the Star Wars licence. But I still think that there are a whole lot of great sourcebooks out there that are a lot of fun to read and give great new content to the Star Wars Universe.

    Still I have been anticipating this move somehow, simply because I think that at some point most of the canon content would be published in books and most ideas, Rodney and his gang have had, would be written down. Nevertheless, it's still sad to see that the licence is not renewed.
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  6. #36
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    Originally posted by Sithspawn
    With this announcement I've seen a lot of negativity of the D20 system. I really don't know why.
    I've no problems with the d20 system personally. I do freely point out that of all of the major systems currently being published, it's the least capable and most complex in terms of encouraging role-playing and playing the game mechanically, respectively.

    Maybe it's just hitting out at WOTC, that I can understand. I won't be buying any more of their products once Star Wars ends. But despite how much I'm hating WOTC right now I still say that the Saga books are excellent. Although much of that could (and should) be attributed to Rodney.
    I've no issues with Wizards on the whole. I still play Wizards games (like I said, we play Axis & Allies a lot), and if nothing else, the fluff included with d20 system publishing is top-notch.

    I like D20, it does it's job and has given me lots of happy gaming moments. A mate of mine says it's open to abuse. I disagree, a game system doesn't get abused, a GM does. And it's only broken if the GM lets it be. And I'll continue to play D20, be it Star Wars Saga or Pathfinder RPG.
    All systems have their flaws. d20 just happens to have a lot more room for exploiting those flaws than certain other systems, and lends itself well to powergaming because it so clearly defines character progression. As I've mentioned, that makes it the closest thing going to MMOs, but that's not necessarily a good thing.
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  7. #37
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    I quite enjoy Saga when I get to play it and I was quite fond of 3.5 so I don't have many bad things to say about WoTC. My only big beef with 4.E is the lack of potential for role playing compared to roll playing. I will definitely miss the minis line though.
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  8. #38
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    Originally posted by Thomas
    I quite enjoy Saga when I get to play it and I was quite fond of 3.5 so I don't have many bad things to say about WoTC. My only big beef with 4.E is the lack of potential for role playing compared to roll playing. I will definitely miss the minis line though.
    I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of D&D4E, and agree that role-play seems to be treated as something done by 'them old school gamers.'

    I currently play Saga, D&D3 and Pathfinder, and Saga is probably my favourite.

    What I like about D20 is that it handles all the nitty gritty of combat in enough detail that it's not tedious. Some systems, like Aces & Eights, I find take it too far. So without having to worry about the mechanics it leaves room for role-play.
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  9. #39
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    I still remember when my friends and I found out that WotC had gotten the license initially. We were pretty bummed out that LFL had gone with a system that was more dice-rolling than role-playing.

    It took SWSE to get back to the style of D6 gaming, and now after 2 1/2 years they're yanking the license.

    I still maintain that there should be a break from any new company taking the license.
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  10. #40
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    Originally posted by Treefrog
    I still maintain that there should be a break from any new company taking the license.
    I don't see any of the companies that could afford the license running out to snag it, frankly. Granted, CCP having bought White Wolf does mean you really have no idea what's going to happen over there, but I just don't see it happening.

    I'm just hoping they let Rodney run a little away from home base and deliver us a really interesting new system.
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  11. #41
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    So that would leave LFL to their own devices to market a SW RPG game, which translates to either they come up with a roleplaying system inhouse, or contract it out / outsource it to a developer, sort of like how LFL handles their console and PC game product lines.

    Its funny how it works - when companies want to play in LFL's sandbox with merchandising material, they pay LFL's licensing fees for a contract.

    Yet, when LFL has a product that they don't have the resources or materials available to produce a particular product for their franchise, they outsource it to a a developer.

    Where I'm going with this, as Ardent mentioned the cost of licensing SW for roleplaying might be too pricey given how the markets are these days; however - it would be just the ironic twist that LFL ends up contracting out to one of the roleplaying companies to market a new SW roleplaying game system.

    LFL seems to want to continue the miniatures line.

    So it'd be interesting to see if that happens or not, and to whom would LFL pick as the developer for the rpg. Dunno if it'd be WOTC or not, or one of the other companies.


    On the other hand, as Treefrog mentioned, if theres say a year's absence from any new published sw roleplaying material, and we're all left to our own devices to use and roleplay with the already 3 known and established systems, that wouldn't be so bad either. For one, it'd be great to see traffic pick up here for game discussions, the forum still offering a place to communicate on RCR & D6 system mechanics.
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  12. #42
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    I find it extremely unlikely that LFL will do something in-house with this game; its just not that profitable.

    WotC did very little to help the RPG; we shouldn't be surprised by this move. Consider this the death knell of tabletop RPG-ing - excepting limited pockets of fringe games, like Vampire (to pull a title out of the air), of course (and the perennial D&D too).

    Minis were the cash cow, and LFL only tagged the RPG onto this license to milk this market niche along with those plastic money sinkholes.
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  13. #43
    Registered User Terras Jadeonar & Raven's Avatar
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    Well, if this is the end of the SW RPG era as far as commercial publications go, fan based sourcebooks might be the way to go. Those were a popular thing here years ago.
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  14. #44
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    and still are in some cases, treefrog has been working on the Legacy sourcebook for some time now.
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    Well Rodney has yet to come down like a ton of bricks on any of the fan stuff so I think it's safe for now.
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