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Thread: Disney Bought Lucasfilms

  1. #76
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    Thumbs up Wisdom my brothers...

    Vanger:

    I concur, Disney should seek the wisdom of this esteemed body. Sadly I suspect they lack the humble vision necessary to seek those who could help them the most (namely us). I suspect you just gave me an outstanding idea for my next letter to Disney (hint hint).

    Bocce:

    Balancing act is an understatement. I consider Disney's optimal solution to produce "Heir to the Empire" thus canonizing the very novel that began the Star Wars Renaissance of 1991-92. My personal survey data indicates the most SWRPG players started playing in the year 1992, hardly a surprise. If it wasn't for the "Thrawn Trilogy", we may not have met and this forum might not even exist. Food for thought...

    I disagree with your "good story" position. Devoid of continuity, a story can quickly unravel and result in chaos.

    “ How do we know that Mother's dead? Where's her grave? Who saw her die? Did you? ”
    — Master Luke Skywalker, “Before the Storm”, p. 114
    “ Your mind powers will not work on me, boy. I am not affected by your human thought pattern. I was killing your kind when being a Jedi meant something. ”
    — Jabba the Hutt, “Return of the Jedi” (novelization), p. 30
    “ Because I designed most of the Death Star! ”
    — Qui Xux, “Jedi Search”, p. 270
    “ The swamps had hidden Yoda for centuries, and it was certainly isolated from the mainstream of galactic traffic ... but Dagobah had no appropriate facilities either. ”
    — Princess Leia Organa Solo, “Jedi Search”, p. 302
    Some more food for thought...
    Frank V Bonura - STAR WARS Deckplans Alliance Founder

  2. #77
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    Hey, I love your deckplans!

    Quote Originally Posted by FVBonura View Post
    My personal survey data indicates the most SWRPG players started playing in the year 1992, hardly a surprise. If it wasn't for the "Thrawn Trilogy", we may not have met and this forum might not even exist. Food for thought...
    I bought the WEG Star Wars RPG, read the rules and began planning my first campaign in 1987, and I started running the game in 1988. But I may be a minority on this site.

    Quote Originally Posted by FVBonura View Post
    Balancing act is an understatement. I consider Disney's optimal solution to produce "Heir to the Empire" thus canonizing the very novel that began the Star Wars Renaissance of 1991-92.
    The renaissance you refer to is the formation of the modern Star Wars EU. The movies are and should be above and beyond the EU. The sales figures of the prequel trilogy and blu-ray collection indicate that the there is a much greater majority of Star Wars film fans that have never (and likely will never) read a single Star Wars novel, so I don't think the start of the modern EU had any substantial effect in creating new film fans.

    And it has already been confirmed that the new movies will be original stories, not based on the Thrawn trilogy or any other existing novels (see my links in this thread above).

    Quote Originally Posted by FVBonura View Post
    I disagree with your "good story" position. Devoid of continuity, a story can quickly unravel and result in chaos.

    “ How do we know that Mother's dead? Where's her grave? Who saw her die? Did you? ”

    — Master Luke Skywalker, “Before the Storm”, p. 114
    “ Your mind powers will not work on me, boy. I am not affected by your human thought pattern. I was killing your kind when being a Jedi meant something. ”

    — Jabba the Hutt, “Return of the Jedi” (novelization), p. 30
    “ Because I designed most of the Death Star! ”

    — Qui Xux, “Jedi Search”, p. 270
    “ The swamps had hidden Yoda for centuries, and it was certainly isolated from the mainstream of galactic traffic ... but Dagobah had no appropriate facilities either. ”

    — Princess Leia Organa Solo, “Jedi Search”, p. 302
    Some more food for thought...
    You have presented a great argument for the current EU canon being completely chucked for the sake of the new movies, and why Disney should just start over with "EU2". Maybe EU2 could actually fulfill the Lucasfilm EU's failed mission of not contradicting the movies and itself. And no one said they had to stop publishing the current EU. The current owners of the Star Trek franchise still publishes stories set in the original timeline.

    The new movies should not in any way be restricted by the mountains and mountains of the existing, self-contradicting continuity. The EU should always take a backseat to the films. It doesn't have to be one or the other for story and continuity. The new movies can have a good story and continuity both. It would be much easier to maintain a good level of continuity if the new Star Wars films only have to be consistent with the previous movies and each other.

    This and all other products that take place after the events depicted in Return of the Jedi are the author's vision of what may have happened. The true fate of the heroes and villains of the Star Wars universe remains the exclusive province of George Lucas and Lucasfilm, Ltd.

    ~Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, 1992
    The only thing different now is that George Lucas has sold his exclusive province over Star Wars with Lucasfilm.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whill View Post
    The new movies can have a good story and continuity both. It would be much easier to maintain a good level of continuity if the new Star Wars films only have to be consistent with the previous movies and each other.
    This is what I'm hoping for. Continuity with the previous movies and each other, and a good story. I don't care if they base it on new stuff, as long as it has those aspects.
    Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
    facta, non verba

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    Default Sequel Trilogy News

    Official News:

    Disney Chief Alan Horn on Star Wars VII director: I would say you'll know soon

    George Lucas: ‘I Don’t Really Have Much To Do’ As ‘Consultant’ On Star Wars: Episode VII

    This should make a lot of fans happy (the ones who hate most everything Old Lucas has done with the franchise since 1997).

    Rick McCallum leaves Lucasfilm

    This should also make the purists pleased. Rick McCallum was Lucas' producer for all Star Wars theatrical productions from 1997-2005 (Special Editions and Prequels). Some of you may feel Old Lucas' main sidekick may have been too programmed by Old Lucas to provide any positive contributions to Disney Star Wars now.

    Leading Rumors:

    The Hollywood Reporter Sources: Lawrence Kasdan, Simon Kinberg Lock Deals to Write and Produce 'Star Wars' Installments

    Many fans should be very happy to have Kasdan, who co-wrote The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi and Raiders of the Lost Ark, involved with writing and production. That gives the sequel trilogy a lot of purist cred right there.

    Is Matthew Vaughn in Talks to Direct STAR WARS: EPISODE VII? (11/5)
    Matthew Vaughn's actor friend implies the director is in talks for Star Wars (11/28)

  5. #80
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    Question Will this galaxy ever be healed?

    Whill:

    Thank you bro, I am glad you like the Deckplans.

    If you started playing the SWRPG in 1987-88 you represent the second largest demographic in the RPG hobby according to my survey data. You are in good company.

    I do realize we EU aficionados are a minority in the greater scheme of the SW phenomenon. Keep in mind a political minority convinced a nation to rise up against its oppressors and declare independence in 1776. I for one believe one man can change the world with a new idea so I wont let the masses of illiterate American SW fans discourage my efforts.

    You are quite right when you say the movies "should" trump the EU. However that did not happen over the last 13 years. The movies were terrible story-telling at best, the movies contradicted what we knew about SW for the previous 22 years, thus the movies failed to be prequels by very definition. The Prequels only served to start a galactic civil war amongst Star Wars Fans.

    In spite of some of the rather lackluster story arcs of the EU between 1991-99, they stayed fairly consistent internally and harmonized externally with the original movies from 1977-83. The prequels failed to perform this very essential task. How can we even call the Prequels "STAR WARS" when they fail to tell a consistent back-story with what we viewed in 1977-83????

    I disagree that we had a minor role in the STAR WARS Renaissance. There are far too many casual fans who have not read any of the books who know Mara Jade and Grand Admiral Thrawn for your claim to be so. The EU aficionados have been the advocates for STAR WARS, we have braved the cold sleepy years and held vigil for the prequels for 16 years. Our passion for the genre started an avalanche in 1991.

    Confirmed story or not, if Disney is 1% more intelligent and 2% wiser than George Lucas, they will be reading and seriously considering any correspondence they are receiving on this topic. Translation: Please talk to them and share your opinion and be heard brother.

    To all:

    I put to all of you this thought, what better way to reach the greater masses of illiterate SW fans, with the grandeur of the Expanded Universe, than to produce a book adaption motion picture??? Not just any novel but an adaptation of the most successful STAR WARS novel ever.

    To Whill and Grimace:

    Keep in mind by "chucking" the existing EU, you are also asking many of us to "chuck" thousands of dollars of STAR WARS Products we worked hard to pay for. The other question you need to ask, what if Disney integrates the Episode 1-3 material in the new movie? Would that not still bring us back to square one (i.e. a broken galaxy)???

    Personally I am shocked that people like yourselves who have used these RPG products for a quarter century are willing to toss them in favor of a new movie that may be poisoned with the likes of goofy gungans, yammering battle droids, flying astromechs, and who knows what other Prequel abominations.

    Also be mindful, a genuine "REBOOT" of the franchise would also require a remake of the Old Trilogy but Disney wont even do a remake of "The Wizard of Oz" so I am suspecting the Old Trilogy is still very much sacrosanct. Under these parameters, this new movie will be a bandage at best, not a true cure.

    Food for thought...
    Frank V Bonura - STAR WARS Deckplans Alliance Founder

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    I didn't say I'd accept whatever they throw at me. I said that I hope they make something worthwhile and consistant with the movies (Star Wars, Empires Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi). If that means dumping some or most of the conflicting material from the EU, then so be it. If they want to use some of the material from the EU, and work it into a new vision, one that doesn't have "goofy gungans, yammering battle droids,and flying astromechs", then I won't have a problem with it. If they include goofy gimmicks to cater to the kiddies in a dunce sort of way, then I won't like the new material.

    I look at as this: I didn't let the prequels interfere with my vision of what happened before Star Wars. I won't let whatever comes out after Return of the Jedi to affect my vision of Star Wars material UNLESS it's good, worthwhile material.

    Disney has come out with some very kiddie type movies. They've also come out with some pretty decent movies that I enjoy immensely (the original Pirates of the Caribbean and the Avengers for example). I'm hoping that they strike gold with a new Star Wars movie. But if they come out with a kiddie movie, I'm just as likely to ignore any of it just as I've ignored the prequels.
    Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
    facta, non verba

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    Here is a nice look at the big picture: http://www.statisticbrain.com/star-w...chise-revenue/

    Quote Originally Posted by FVBonura View Post
    I put to all of you this thought, what better way to reach the greater masses of illiterate SW fans, with the grandeur of the Expanded Universe, than to produce a book adaption motion picture??? Not just any novel but an adaptation of the most successful STAR WARS novel ever.
    I've got several responses to that:

    (1) It is true that the majority of money-spending Star Wars fans do not read any books, but it is extremely offensive to refer to them as "illiterate". Choosing not to read and not being able to read at all are two completely different things. True illiteracy is a tragedy.

    (2) You also seem to presume that Disney is interested in greatly expanding the current Star Wars novel publishing consumer group. Look at the franchise since 2005. Tons of books sold and Lucas said there will be no more movies, ever. Then Disney buys Star Wars. What is the big difference now? New movies can be made. The Disney Star Wars franchise is like the previous Star Wars franchise, PLUS new movie sequels. Star Wars novel sales figures are nothing to sneeze at, but they are small percentage of the profit potential of the franchise. I see no reason why Disney would not expect the publishing money machine to continue pretty much like it has, but the BIG money is in movies. Suggesting they should base the movie on a novel for the purpose of selling more novels is like saying they need to spend a million dollars to make a thousand dollars. More books in general are sold in the years movies are released because movies sell books, not the other way around.

    (3) Your premise is flawed anyway because the vast majority of movie-goers and movie-buyers do not read any books ever. So even if they loved an Heir to the Empire movie, that doesn't mean they will suddenly be inspired to read a book for the first time since school (Their reasoning is 'I've seen the movie so I don't have to read the book' or 'I'll wait for the movie'). Most of the people that would read the book (who haven't already) would be people who read movie novelizations of movies they like, and those people already buy movie novelizations made from original films. A lot of people that have already read the HttE novel already have it or would not read it again. An original movie's novelization will sell more new books than a movie made from a 20-year-old book would.

    (4) Disney knows the biggest movie and franchise profit potential is for the sequels to have an original story. It's unknown territory and even many skeptics will pay to see it out of curiosity. No one can be prejudiced against the story because they've already read the book and didn't like it. No one can be disappointed because the casting doesn't match 20 years of imagining the characters. No one can predict anything about the movies with certainty. There is an element of surprise! It's NEW, not old. And there will be a whole slew of new toys. New spin-off novels and reference books with completely new material.

    (5) The Thrawn Trilogy is about the classic trinity Luke/Han/Leia (until the very end). So should they re-cast all the human film characters? I doubt anyone would accept anyone other than Harrison Ford as Han, and the movies would just be bogged down by fan comparisons of all the re-cast roles.

    (6) Or should they shift the plot 30 years into the future to account for the original actors current ages? Could you imagine Carrie Fisher pushing 60 and pushing out twins? And while I'm sure that Hamill and Fisher would accept any bone thrown at them, Ford will not play Han as a leading role again. And shifiting the Thrawn Trilogy into the future would "destroy" the EU continuity anyway.

    (6) Either way, while minions of Zahn fans go gaga over Mara Jade despite her being an ultra-cliched thinly-disguised amalgamation of Luke/Han/Leia/Vader (with red hair and green eyes to boot), I doubt the throngs of non-Star-Wars-book-reading Star Wars fans could accept the sudden, unexpected marginalization of the classic trinity at the climax of the Last Command film. And you think some people have a problem with Ewoks now? The Thrawn Trilogy of films would go down in cinematic history as the Worst. Ending. Ever.

    (7) Everything I've typed above is moot because, as stated multiple times previously, it has been confirmed that the sequel trilogy with not be based on any existing novels. And if that wasn't enough confirmation, they have even specifically stated it will NOT be based on the Thrawn Trilogy. Not. Going. To Happen. Instead of submitting requests to Disney to do something that's not going to happen, I suggest trying to begin the mourning process and getting over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FVBonura View Post

    To Whill and Grimace:

    Keep in mind by "chucking" the existing EU, you are also asking many of us to "chuck" thousands of dollars of STAR WARS Products we worked hard to pay for. The other question you need to ask, what if Disney integrates the Episode 1-3 material in the new movie? Would that not still bring us back to square one (i.e. a broken galaxy)???

    Personally I am shocked that people like yourselves who have used these RPG products for a quarter century are willing to toss them in favor of a new movie that may be poisoned with the likes of goofy gungans, yammering battle droids, flying astromechs, and who knows what other Prequel abominations.

    Also be mindful, a genuine "REBOOT" of the franchise would also require a remake of the Old Trilogy but Disney wont even do a remake of "The Wizard of Oz" so I am suspecting the Old Trilogy is still very much sacrosanct. Under these parameters, this new movie will be a bandage at best, not a true cure.
    No one is saying the new movies will be reboots, or that the movie series will or should get rebooted. The new films have clearly been referred to as sequels, which means they follow the continuity of the existing films. Unlike Lucas who has been a stubborn tyrant over his empire, I think it is likely that Disney will try to avoid some of the fan "controversies" of the prequels. It is possible for the new movies to not contradict prequels, but also not refer to them too overtly at the same time. (They wouldn't dare use the dreaded "M" word ever again, would they?)

    The movie series and EU are two separate entities. It has always been that way, so if you still don't see that, you must unlearn what you have learned. The new sequel films can maintain continuity with the existing films, while disregarding the continuity of the current EU. Disney can make an EU2 that is maintains continuity with all the films and itself, but also disregards the continuity of current EU.

    And for all of you diehard EU1 customers, they can even still publish EU1 novels that maintains continuity with the pre-Disney EU but not the new films. If Star Trek can publish things taking place in the continuity of the previous and current franchises simultaneously, why can't Star Wars do that too? If there's a market for EU1, then you'll probably see that.

    But what completely boggles my mind the most is this completely irrational mindset I keep running into with disgruntled fanboys of Star Trek, and Star Wars now. Even if they completely stopped publishing EU1 material in favor of the new EU2, I don't understand why people think they have to throw away all of your current Star Wars stuff? Why would you do that? What's wrong with it? Would you suddenly not like it anymore? No one can make you toss all your existing books and things. If you still like them, you'll keep them. Disney does not have a time machine. They can't go back and erase EU1 from ever being published. Your post-RotJ novel collection will not disappear like people in the photographs in Back to the Future.

    Star Wars is not all or nothing. It's an increasingly large buffet. Buy what you want to buy, and don't buy what you don't want to. Keep what you want to, and don't keep what you don't want. Ignore the continuity you don't like, and make-up your own continuity band-aids. Use your own imagination. Only you can define your own personal Star Wars universe (or multiverse).

    No matter what happens in the future of the Star Wars franchise, I'm not chucking my current collections of Star Wars movies, RPGs, reference books, novels, etc. And I suspect that I'll add a thing or two to my Star Wars collection in the future.

  8. #83
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    Lightbulb Interesting...

    Whill:

    First off, let me thank you for that epistle, it gives me a treasure trove of concepts to ponder. It might take me more than one post to process it but lets study at least some of your conclusions.

    Also, thank you for that statistics link. I like the way the data was presented graphically and it does shed some light on the scope of the issue. However, please keep this in mind, the data presented on statisticbrain.com:

    • Spans many decades
    • Covers the good selling years with the bad (I wish it had separated the data by year).
    • Makes no mention if its adjusted for inflation (which would/could give the newer numbers more weight)


    It was my intention to be offensive when I referred to casual SW fans as being "illiterate". I make no apology for such statements.

    Sidebar: Seven years ago I befriended a young man who claimed to be a "Star Wars Fan", and he loved the prequels when I first met him. I put "Han Solo at Stars' End" in his hands and proceeded to have him read every novel from Brian Daley up to Zahn's "Vision of the Future" (c. 1998). I was overjoyed to slowly watch as this illiterate SW Fan bloom into a learned SW scholar. He no longer likes the prequels, big surprise. Its one of the few happy SW events, in my life, to come of late. I'll keep working on this front encouraging as many SW Fans, as I can, to read the EU.

    To answer your question the "big difference" now is I believe Disney will listen to top-end fans like ourselves much more so than George listened to us. Also for clarity, I am less interested in new or old book sales but am passionate about preventing the old novels from being crushed under a capital-scale retcon steamroller. I want the greater SW masses to experience Zahn's masterpiece. I want to show the world that SW is not just a franchise for children but that it can also grow up with its fans and still speak to everyone. This has nothing to do with book sales and has everything to do with preserving a treasure and preserving SW history. I apologize if I implied anything to the contrary.

    Whill I strongly suspect Disney has come to the very same conclusions you outlined above and they are choosing to try and heal the franchise by growing out and up with new branches and new fruit. My concern is new branches sprouting from a rotted tree are just as likely to be torn off the worm-ridden trunk and collapse when the first storm comes. Perhaps with your help and the aid of everyone here, we can impart some wisdom to their strategy???

    To all:

    I decided to post here not to postulate what Disney is thinking or what they may do. I came here to convict the lot of you to take action and speak up not just in here but to Disney directly.

    My brothers it is very easy to complain, to scoff, to wonder, and to theorize what may be for the future of STAR WARS.

    " if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil "
    -- Master Yoda
    It takes a person of character and discernment to stand by what they believe and what they are passionate about, articulate those ideas into words, and share them with those who now have power over said passions. There is still time to speak my brothers. The question is, will you remain here to speak amongst yourselves or are your opinions, your desires, and your wishes important enough to warrant a bigger audience??? The choice is yours...
    Frank V Bonura - STAR WARS Deckplans Alliance Founder

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    Lightbulb To continue:

    Whill:

    If the new movies follow the continuity of the existing films, they will run into problems if they attempt to harmonize with the prequels. If Disney is wise, they will harmonize with the Old Trilogy exclusively.

    I suspect "Midi-chlorians" may be back as well as a myriad of other more subtle prequel problems. Unless Disney treats the prequels like a cancerous tumor, they risk polluting their new work. Truncating May 19, 1999 to present has been the main reason I was able to maintain sanity and consistency in my own campaigns. I hope Disney can come to the same conclusion. It is our job, all of us, to tell them what we want (hint hint).

    I agree the movies and the EU have been mostly treated as two separate universes. The problem is George has been most inconsistent in that treatment. Need I remind you of Dash Rendar's Outrider over Mos Eisley in the Special Edition of "A New Hope" or the use of the name Coruscant? Are you aware of these as well?

    “ That's quite a fleet for bottling up one undefended dust cloud. What do they think this is, the Clone Wars? ”
    — Lando Calrissian, “Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka”, pp. 15-16
    “ He was supposed to go for one of the flashy chrome-plated yachts that had been collecting dust on the front row, not the freighter I'd been quietly upgrading on the side for myself. ”
    — Lando Calrissian, “Heir to the Empire”, p. 219
    “ I'm glad you called this meeting, President, because I was about to call one myself. You need to know that there's a no-confidence movement in the Senate. There will be a vote shortly. ”
    — Senator Meido the Adinian, “The New Rebellion”, p. 278
    If the EU and the prequels were truly treated as separate, or as the same universe that would be fine but what has been done can be kindly referred to as a piecemeal hodgepodge of inconsistency. It needs to be one or the other and it is not. At the root of this is that George was jealous of Zahn's success and chose to eradicate the EU for upstaging him. I will include the deaths of Chewbacca, Anakin Solo, and Mara Jade as exhibits A, B, and C respectively.

    STAR WARS is not STAR TREK. I would like to think we are a higher caliber of fan and enthusiast. TREK has been an inconsistent mess since 1966 and the STAR WARS EU has prided itself on keeping things organized.

    I have little patience or tolerance for all this inconsistency when people like Ann C. Crispin can do her homework and write a trilogy of Prequels for Han Solo, write brilliantly, and include references from every obscure corner of the franchise up to that point. No excuse, it can be done, even in the STAR WARS Galaxy. We need to hold Disney to a high standard lest we will all be stuck with more junk we have had thrown at us over the last 13 years. Food for thought...

    More to come...
    Frank V Bonura - STAR WARS Deckplans Alliance Founder

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    Quote Originally Posted by FVBonura View Post
    Whill:If the EU and the prequels were truly treated as separate, or as the same universe that would be fine but what has been done can be kindly referred to as a piecemeal hodgepodge of inconsistency. It needs to be one or the other and it is not.
    No it doesn't. In my game I use what works for me and ignore what I don't like. I hope Disney does the same.
    <<<<<

    They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles... Isaiah 40:31

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    Quote Originally Posted by FVBonura View Post
    Whill:STAR WARS EU has prided itself on keeping things organized.
    Surely you're not serious.
    <<<<<

    They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles... Isaiah 40:31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Surely you're not serious.
    Oh, he's serious, alright. Seriously deluded. Frankie's gone off the deep end into pure nutcase zealot mode since I ended my association with him. He talks about Star Wars like it's a religion now. The EU is largely garbage and using Zahn's novels for the sequel trilogy would be stupidity of the worst sort. Very few Star Wars novels have ever been suited to screen adaptation. Zahn's novels are not among the lucky few.
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    I think this argument boils down to a question of ownership: who owns Star Wars? While Lucas legally owned Star Wars and its rights, many of the fans felt that they too had some amount of claim to it, and that their preferences and choices should be respected. And, strictly speaking, that isn't the case. Legal ownership means that you really can do whatever you want to it. I would argue that those who helped produce the films also have some amount of creative and intellectual ownership, as they were actively involved in making the films which now have such a following. In that respect, the authors and developers who have produced comics, books, games, and other media also have some amount of ownership. In contrast, the fans don't have the same type of ownership, except those who have themselves created more material to be enjoyed (fan films, for example). Granted, the fans have financed much of Lucas's success and will now fund Disney's but there is a world of difference between purchasing products which have already been made and creating your own material.

    For that reason, I really don't think that the producers of Star Wars "owe" the fans anything. It is the right of producers, especially Lucas, to do with the series as they will, just as it is our right to explore Star Wars however we want in our games and stories. That does not mean that we need to approve of everything the producers do (I enjoy very little in the Prequel material), and if we feel that we want to have a bigger influence, any one of us is free to seek a job with Lucas Film, try to publish a Star Wars book, create a fan film, or contribute to the larger community in any way we feel inclined to.

    Also, I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" type of Star Wars fan. My nine-year-old cousin who knows very little of the original films but loves the Clone Wars series is not "less" of a fan than I am (if anything, he is MORE obsesses with Star Wars than I am), he's just a different type. He finds different material entertaining than I do, and, honestly, were I nine I would probably love the Clone Wars as well. I certainly did not care about the subtitles between the character interactions, or Yoda's monologue on the force, or literary patterns found in the films when I was young; I cared about lightsabers and explosions.

    In the end, Star Wars in not one thing. It means many different things to many different people, and what some find compelling other will find wanting. So, like Grimace and Sarge said, the material we don't enjoy does not need to change what Star Wars means to us.
    Utulie'n aure! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatari, utulie'n aure!

  14. #89
    Wanna-be musician Fingon's Avatar
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    Default A thought

    And perhaps we should refrain from personal attacks here.
    Last edited by Fingon; 11 December 2012 at 09:31 PM.
    Utulie'n aure! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatari, utulie'n aure!

  15. #90
    Moderator boccelounge's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Just so you all know: Star Wars isn't Real

    Quote Originally Posted by Fingon View Post
    And perhaps we should refrain from personal attacks here.
    Thanks, Fingon; I entirely agree. I might also note that I've learned, over many, many years of beating my head against immovable walls, that sometimes walls are just immovable, and there's no sense beating your head against them.

    This applies to many things, for example:

    - Really heavy walls

    - People who still think the Pittsburgh Steelers are an "elite" team

    - What I like to call "ultra-literalists"-- people who must have everything make perfect sense and be spelled out in every minute detail in every way or it is utterly BAD, and for whom anyone who disagrees with them in any way is utterly FOOLISH.

    You can't argue with people like this; to argue is to investigate: to espouse a view and test the strength of that view in hopes to convince others to agree with that view, or to challenge them to provide a superior and opposing view. Most people, those I like to call "rational people," or "grown-ups" see an argument as a chance to put one's opinion to the test of others' opinions; in the process, one's original argument can be strengthened or weakened, but the end result will always be a stronger and more rational opinion.

    As opposed to these "rational people," or "grown-ups," there are numerous people who turn the arrangement on its head-- rather than starting a rational discourse with the intention of proving or disproving it on rational grounds, they start the investigation with a pre-supposed conclusion, and will doggedly resist any attempts to deflect the predetermined destination of their sacred-idol-like predetermined answer. And by doggedly I mean annoyingly, endlessly, sanctimoniously, and usually on the internet.

    To put it briefly, I find it wise, in forums of discussion such as this, to a) identify ultra-literalists as quickly as possible, then b) stop conversing with them.

    It may not be easy, and it certainly isn't intellectually satisfying, but it sure beats the head-on-wall-beating that certainly, inevitably, unstoppably follows from trying to "argue" with them in a rational way.

    Just my 2cr. YMMV.


    EDIT: Unrelated to this post, I suggest to the forum mod that this thread be moved to Rumors-and-Speculation; given the topic and the potential import it has for the future of the SWRPG, it seems to fit there better than here. Just a minor point.
    Last edited by boccelounge; 12 December 2012 at 04:50 AM.
    "Half the fun of God's forgiveness is having reasons to ask for it."

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