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  1. #121
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    ^ That.

    Also, the plot made no sense. The Romulan villain from the future wanted to kill Kirk because Spock tried to save Romulus? If your home planet is wiped out in a cataclysm that throws you back in time, you don't go looking for revenge against a natural catastrophe, you go looking for a way to stop it from happening.

    Even villains need to have plausible motivations. I have no respect for writers who make bad guys do things just because they're bad, or any character do anything just because the plot calls for it.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    ^ That.

    Also, the plot made no sense. The Romulan villain from the future wanted to kill Kirk because Spock tried to save Romulus? If your home planet is wiped out in a cataclysm that throws you back in time, you don't go looking for revenge against a natural catastrophe, you go looking for a way to stop it from happening.

    Even villains need to have plausible motivations. I have no respect for writers who make bad guys do things just because they're bad, or any character do anything just because the plot calls for it.
    The Romulan villain from the future was not out to kill Kirk. He only even cared about Kirk as much as Kirk got in his way. Nero primarily wanted two things: (1) To destroy Vulcan with Spock watching. (2) To destroy Earth, the Federation capital. To achieve that he needed defense codes from a high-ranking Starfleet officer, which is why he captured fleet Captain Pike.

    It is a very natural response to tragedy for people to look for someone to blame for the loss of loved ones. Nero blamed Spock for not preventing the catastophe from killing his wife and child. Nero wanted revenge now, but he had 129 years to save his family and planet from the catastophe. He obviously wasn't a Unificationist. He psychopathically blamed the Federation for his people's woes - For Romulas even being in a weakened position to be destroyed by some natural catastrophe pending Federation aid that doesn't arrive in time.

    Revenge is a common motivation for villains (and protagonists) in fiction. Everyone loves TWoK and the villain Khan (myself included), but isn't Khan also an extremely one-dimensional villain? Khan knew the Enterprise was not rightfully his, but he tried to take over the ship anyway. Typical bad guy stuff. But then Khan is actually enranged that Kirk exiled him for his actions? How could Khan blame Kirk for taking back what was his in the first place, and for Kirk exiling him for his crimes? How plausible is that? Khan had a superior intellect and years to think about it, but that's misdirected hostility. But wait, there was a personal tragedy. Khan's "wife" died after being exiled. What killed her? A natural disaster (and her not being an augment). Instead, Khan blamed Kirk for his wife's death. Sound familiar?

    No one is saying that ST09 is completely original. I consider it a tribute. But then again I'm a wacky first-generation Star Wars fan who happened to enjoy most of prequel trilogy, so take all this for what you will.

  3. #123
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    I think the single dumbest thing about Abramstrek was Kirk going from Cadet to Captain in less than a week. I flatly refuse to believe that Starfleet lost so many actual academy graduates to Nero's rampage that they had to start commissioning non-graduates directly into the center-seat.
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  4. #124
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    Whill, I watched the movie twice and I didn't get any of that out of it. Maybe with better writing or directing it would have been clear, but I just didn't see it.

    Khan had great writing, good direction, and fantastic over-the-top acting. He was so compelling that I didn't care if he was 1-dimensional. That single dimension was HUGE! Nero didn't have any of that.

    Kayle, I couldn't agree more. Judging by past performance, there must be something bad in the water at Starfleet HQ to produce at least one incompetent/treasonous admiral a week, but even they wouldn't take a 3rd year cadet with discipline issues and promote him to Captain in one step. If I had trained, served, and worked my way up the ladder for years and seen this cocky brat with no experience promoted over my head, I'd resign my commission in protest. It's totally unbelievable that someone who doesn't have years of experience gets put in command of the Federation's best and newest ship.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayle Skolaris View Post
    I think the single dumbest thing about Abramstrek was Kirk going from Cadet to Captain in less than a week. I flatly refuse to believe that Starfleet lost so many actual academy graduates to Nero's rampage that they had to start commissioning non-graduates directly into the center-seat.
    Well we did see what, 8 other ships in the fleet be destroyed. So maybe they were down a lot of people.
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  6. #126
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    Now I'll grant that this example is a century later and an alternate universe, but Wolf 359 saw the Federation lose thirty-nine ships and flatly state that they could cover the loss by the end of the year. That's not just ships but crew as well.
    Suspenders of Disbelief: For When the Harsh Weight of Reality Threatens to Drag the Trousers of Our Imagination Down to the Unforgiving Floor of Mundanity!

    The citizens do not need to know what the cost is. They only need know that the mission has been accomplished.

    My sole regret, as I initiate the scuttling sequence that will send my fusion pile critical, is that I will not be present in .03 seconds. I would like to watch as the Enemy try to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear explosion into their research facility. - Bolo Unit Maldon, Mk. XXX Continental Seige Unit of the 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayle Skolaris View Post
    I think the single dumbest thing about Abramstrek was Kirk going from Cadet to Captain in less than a week. I flatly refuse to believe that Starfleet lost so many actual academy graduates to Nero's rampage that they had to start commissioning non-graduates directly into the center-seat.
    It was strongly suggested by the film that Kirk was on the verge of graduating the academy to become a commissioned officer.

    The Federation had just suffered the lost of the planet Vulcan, and would have lost Earth if it hadn't been for Kirk violating the Starfleet stuff shirt chain of command. This is nothing new. In the prime universe, Kirk also got Starfleet charges dropped and command of a new Enterprise for saving the planet Earth. Kirk is a galactic hero!

    Starfleet is loaded with inept officers in the prime universe. Captains Terrell, Styles, Esteban, Harriman, anyone? All losers who have no business being captain of a starship. It's a dramatic device used over and over again in the old franchise to make the hero seem even greater by comparison. So is it really a stretch to think that the alternate reality's Starfleet is likewise chock full with ineffectual starship captains? Kirk demonstrated the type of character needed as a starship captain. Was he fully qualified to command the Enterprise yet? No. Do they need him in command anyway? Yes. It's for Federation PR, enemy intimidation, inspiration of Starfleet cadets and other young officers, and setting an example for all the loser captains that Starfleet undoubtedly has. Kirk is a galactic hero!

  8. #128
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    I get that, Whill, and I know Kirk is a heroic fictional character, but that kind of instant promotion is just too much for my willing suspension of belief. Something I liked about classic Trek is the realistic (or at least believable) organization and hierarchy of Starfleet; I can believe that a real-world starfleet would operate the way classic Trek showed it to us. Maybe it's because of my 20 years in uniform, but I can't accept that any cadet, no matter how much potential he shows and no matter how heroically he performs in one incident, would get bounced straight to the top. To me, that's just not realistic.
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  9. #129
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    Harriman was clearly at the start of his career, with Kirk, Scotty, and Chekov commenting on how young everyone seemed. The worst thing Harriman tried to do is give Kirk command and get himself lost in the Nexus for seventy-five years.

    Esteban was in command of an interstellar Pinto that could *accidentally* be one-spotted by a 23rd century Bird of Prey, he had every right and reason to be overly cautious and concerned. A stiff stellar breeze could likely stave in the Grissom's hull.

    Styles...okay, yeah, Styles bad-mouthed his chief engineer's former ship in front of said chief engineer, that's hard core incompetence right there.

    But Terrell? TERRELL??? The man who KILLED HIMSELF rather than kill Kirk? If that's incompetence, I don't want to be competent. I'm willing to let the Ceti Alpha V/Ceti Alpha Vi stuff slide because this is Star Trek and that sort of zaniness is quite honestly episode-of-the-week stuff. It's nothing special in the grand scheme of things. It's how Terrell died that elevates the man. Also, being played by Paul Winfield always helps.

    Now if you want some multi-season examples of incompetence, there's always Janeway and Archer...
    Suspenders of Disbelief: For When the Harsh Weight of Reality Threatens to Drag the Trousers of Our Imagination Down to the Unforgiving Floor of Mundanity!

    The citizens do not need to know what the cost is. They only need know that the mission has been accomplished.

    My sole regret, as I initiate the scuttling sequence that will send my fusion pile critical, is that I will not be present in .03 seconds. I would like to watch as the Enemy try to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear explosion into their research facility. - Bolo Unit Maldon, Mk. XXX Continental Seige Unit of the 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade.

  10. #130
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    Amen to Terrell. He's a hero. From what I understand, his vessel was a science ship, not a warship, and he was clearly no warrior. But he fought and took his own life in place of another.

    Archer. . . yeah. I've not nothing. Janeway had good moments, but they usually revolved around out-bluffing people. A lot like Kirk in that respect.

    I quite enjoyed AbramsTrek, but I have to agree that the instant promotion was a bit much, as well as the "oh look, it's the entire crew which suddenly came together on accident." I did get Nero's sociopathic revenge, though I thought it could have been done better.

    In my opinion, the biggest problem with the film was that Abrams missed the central idea of Star Trek. I like most of his work and think he is a good director, but he worked with a medium he didn't really understand, and the film suffered because of it.
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  11. #131
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    Archer and the rest of the Enterprise crew were supposed to be a little bit naive and incompetent. By the time the show got cancelled they were managing to avoid mistakes more often than they made them. That literally never happened for Janeway and Voyager.

    Orci and Abrams are Star Wars fans. The diehard variety. When he got offered Trek and asked to make it a more "exciting" brand, the answer was obvious: it needed to be more like Star Wars.

    Star Trek fans of course hated him for mainstreaming "their" thing.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingon View Post
    Amen to Terrell. He's a hero. From what I understand, his vessel was a science ship, not a warship, and he was clearly no warrior. But he fought and took his own life in place of another
    All the more impressive when you recall that Terrell had never even met Kirk before.
    Suspenders of Disbelief: For When the Harsh Weight of Reality Threatens to Drag the Trousers of Our Imagination Down to the Unforgiving Floor of Mundanity!

    The citizens do not need to know what the cost is. They only need know that the mission has been accomplished.

    My sole regret, as I initiate the scuttling sequence that will send my fusion pile critical, is that I will not be present in .03 seconds. I would like to watch as the Enemy try to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear explosion into their research facility. - Bolo Unit Maldon, Mk. XXX Continental Seige Unit of the 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardent View Post
    Star Trek fans of course hated him for mainstreaming "their" thing.
    I wouldn't say that. Trek was just about as mainstream as you could be in the 90's--The Next Generation was the #2 show in the US when it ended. And while Abrams did make the film a lot more like Star Wars, I don't think that would have been a problem if he'd had a little better understanding of the underling mentality behind Trek, specifically Roddenberry's Trek.
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