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Thread: Balance in The Force

  1. #1
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    Default Balance in The Force

    I have been reading a few post on how maybe it wasent really Anikan who would bring balance to the force but it would be his son Luke. I dont know about everyone else but after Vader and the Empire is destroyed. To be it doesent constitute balance. Now we have a whole Jedi Counsal and around two dark jedi. Thats not balance either. My question is when the hell will this balance come? It may have been the empire when they took over but then they went and wiped out the jedi. So much for balance when is it coming Ill be waiting patiently. HEEHEEHEE
    What leave now? In our moment of truimph!!! You overestimate their chances.

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    Ok, I have an answer for this, but first you must forget everything you know of the EU. OK? The reason I say this is cause the person who told me this thought stream never read any of the novels, but is VERY intelligent. I doubt he would be my frnd otherwise (mind you, all my frnds are intelligent in some aspect but have serious social or psychological problems, so it works out). Anyway, we where talking about this, and he just layed out the answer like it was so obvious everyone shoulda seen it by now (The obvious answer is always overlooked).

    Okey, at the start of A New Hope, we know what actual Jedi actually still live? Obi-Wan and Yoda (yes, we don't learn of Yoda until ESB, but that is besides the point).

    What other actual force users still live? Darth Vader and Palpy.

    Mind you, only the EU has any mention of other living force users. For Lucas and the movies they do not count, so they are cast off in this discussion.

    Seeing a trend? Two light side users, and two Dark side users.

    Vader/Anakin KILLS all the jedi except two, Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi that ever lived, and Obi-wan who is more or less on par with Vader in ANH (He let himself die, and we all know it). Palpy is the master of the Sith, with Vader as the apprentice.

    Others who I have said this to have pointed out that the dark side isn't as powerful as the light side. true, but the dark side is much easier to use then the light side, so balance is maintained in this aspect.

    From the time the third to last true Jedi dies (Shaft Windu is my bet) to the time Obi-wan is slain there is balance in the force. Luke, at the time of Obi-wans death, is not very powerful in the force. He remains as such until Dagobah, and maybe even past that. He had to draw on the dark side to defeat Vader on the second death star, and was saved by not actually killing Vader.

    Anyway, you get the point. agree or no?
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    Lessee... before the Purge, you have 1000+ Jedi and 2 Sith...
    After the Purge (with Anakin/Vader doin' da dirty work), you have 2 Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda) and 2 Sith (Vader, Palpy)... seems balanced to me...
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    I have to think that the Jedi Council would be smarter than to willingly train the "Chosen One" if that was the kind of balance they thought was coming. Remember, the debate was over whether Anakin was the Chosen One. Qui-Gon used the term like it was the ultimate trump card. If Anakin was the Chosen One, the risks of training him would be far overshadowed by the potential gain of bringing "balance to the Force." Clearly, none of the Jedi would have even considered training him if they thought he would almost be the end of the order.

    In my opinion, the Force is in balance when those who direct its power do so unobtrusively. Rather than trying to manipulate it, they "follow the will of the Force." With diversity among the Jedi, the living and unifying Force are balanced. The dark side, with its destructive and power sucking nature, goes against any concept of balance in the Force. Anakin destroys the Sith once and for all, the Force has a chance to come back into balance.

  5. #5
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    I am sorry, I disagree. They have made every indication that they cannot see what the future brings. They have no way of knowing what the balance will be, they just hold the utmost optimisim that it will be in their favor. In a way, what I previously described is in their favor for what you think will be the balance. But the death of the Sith is not the balance, the existence of the sith, with only two jedi is the balance. the time of the balance may not be good, but the after effects (death of the sith, but unfortunetly the two jedi, with the birth of a new jedi or even two) are the good part...more or less. realy depends on if in Lucas's vision he sees leia becomeing a Jedi, and if hte Empire completely crumbles with the death of the emperor like the end of the Special Edition RotJ would sort of indicate.

    Anyway, sorry, my point is the Jedi have absolutly no idea what form the Balance of the Force will take, just that in some ways it will be benificial some how, to a certain point of view (which is what the jedi are all about ironically enough). They couldn't possibly know it would mean all of their deaths (and I do mean all, in the end) and the start of a less educated order (I think that is one aspect of the NJO that might actually have some truth to it based on what Lucas has presented in the movies. Luke didn't finish his formal training, he really cant be considered a true jedi)

    Anakin directly brings about the balance by killing the jedi, and indirectly ends the balance by fathering Luke and Leia, both of whome worked to end the balance in one way or another, and for different amounts of time. Leia diplomatically, then militarily for much of her life, Luke for a comparitivly short time but doing ALOT.

    Heh, mental track got derailed again. I have made my point, and will now move on. Thanks for reading this far
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    Just a side question, but does anyone know When or WHY, or from Whom the prophasy came from????
    You cannot dodge it if you don't know it is coming, and you cannot shoot at what you don't know is there!

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    Balance in the force? I believe it was originally mentioned by Qui-gon Jinn after seeing Anakins Miticlorean count. Brought up a couple other times by the Jedi Counsil, or to the counsil. why do you ask?
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    THey were making mention of it, to quote (to my memory)

    "You think this boy is the vergence, the prophesy spoke of" says master Mace
    QUigon replies "Yes i do master".

    They were talking about it, but at no time, has anyone said WHO made the prophesy, When it was predicted/made and where it was made...
    You cannot dodge it if you don't know it is coming, and you cannot shoot at what you don't know is there!

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    Bah, prophesies are prophesies.

    "From the burning lands shall come a Chosen One, born but not concieved, and they shall bring Balance to the Force"

    All a load of drivel. It's always the same. Meaningless cliched lines. No one ever knows what they actually mean until after something has happened and THEN everyone goes 'oh, yeah, that's what i thought'

    You never get helpful prophesies, like:

    "One day a Jedi Master, I think his name sounds something like 'Dried Gummy Chin'. Anyhoo, he'll get back from somewhere, and he'll have this funny rabbit thing with him, oh and a brat of some sort. Yes yes yes, I'm GETTING to the point. Right, whatever you do, DON'T train the brat, it'll be REALLY bad. WAY bad Karma. Send it back to wherever it came from. And the rabbit thing? Shoot it. Right, now, where did I put my tea? Oh, you're sitting on it. Oh, stang, wait a sec, I nearly forgot, Watch out for BOB!"


    All the speculation seems a tad fruitless to me. Everyone seems to be assuming there's some kind of galactic karma scales. It's far more likely to be a general 'the one who will do some fairly serious hefty stuff' than anything else.


    But, for those who insist of going that way, an alternate interpretation, balance has many meanings. The one who brings balance to the force is just as likely to mean 'the one who stops the collapse' Oh no! The Force is teetering of the brink of falling forever to the Dark Side! Something must balance this thing! Wait! It's the Chosen One! He just 86'd the bad guy! Yay! We're no longer teetering, balance has been restored. Oh, darn, but he's toast.
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  10. #10

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    Um... an Idea just occured to me. What if The Balance of the The Force is not about the people or the numbers but the force itself. We've heard that the force is neither good nor evil, so it wouldn't seek either. Maybe the balance of the force is for each side to stop trying to destroy each other and work in concert. The creatures who weild it are the ones who give it good or evil intent but it seeks neutrility. I'm inclined to beleive that only they invented the war between them because they saw no way to exist side by side. The force itself did not start the conflict. A weak example of this is an issue of the comic series Exile when the group hops from one reality to another fixing things to get reality back the way they want it. They met another team who had the same goal but had different missions in order to do that. The regular team went about saving people and similar things the other team did the murders and things like that. Each team is needed in order to acheive success of a mutual goal and the good guys can stop the badguys unless they wish to abandon the goal.
    I think a small temporaray balance was achieved when Luke refused to kill his father and vader stopped fighting luke (admittedly he was beaten but he didn't use force choke or trip him over the edge of the pit) They stopped fighting and neither seemed to be truely pure either. Luke was angry and stopped attacking less because it was wrong and more to spit the emporor (yeah i'm stretching it) and Vader saw no victory in it. Either his son dies or he does, both destroys a powerful force user, and his son seemed to be resistant to the darkside. So The jedi wouldn't die (even his daughter might carry it on if luke died at the emporors hands. So it seemed to both of them that no gain could be had from continuing. When it looked like the emporor might kill Luke and vader knew he'd die it would leave the emporor in charge and only the princess to oppose it. So Vader destroyed the emporor and himself leaving his son who has seemed for the most part to hold a near neutral footing and brought about a new age of jedi some destined for darkness some for light and other seem undecided.
    It would seem that they are closer to a balance now then ever. The fallen and dark jedi don't seek to destroy the good but see no problem in doing things differently where the YV are concerned. The dark and light might very well be allies in a common war.
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    ok, no offense, BUT DON'T EVER COMPARE MARVEL TO STAR WARS!!! such blasphemy makes Blink cry

    hehe, anyway, I have always believed in the KISS principle. Keep It Simple St..er..well, you get the message. I realy dont see the point in reading to much into the balance if there is a perfectly obvious answer that will keep me tied over until EpIII. But that is just me.
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  12. #12

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    DON'T EVER COMPARE MARVEL TO STAR WARS!!! such blasphemy makes Blink cry
    Um... ooooookay. I like to pretend I came up with the story line to exiles. I even sent an email out to Marv over a year or so ago. Only my group would have been Blink, morph, Spider-Girl, x-man, Rachel summers, Joseph (young magneto), Blood storm, penance, Metal head from X-men 2099. I think these are some of the ones I suggested as possibilities. I have a fondness for the odd or lost people.
    I also had a version I started as an outline on my computer. Some other characters including some from DC and even Amalgam made it into some.

    But I still think Blink Morph Spider-Girl X-man and Pheonix 2 would be the ultimate team.

    But so we don't deveat too much from the SW theme of the board, there are some useful bits from marvel that would be neat for star wars. One I'm pondering now is the use of The Hounds (Rachel Summers) as force adepts used to hunt jedi.
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  13. #13
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    Lightbulb

    Originally posted by Bombaatu
    After the Purge (with Anakin/Vader doin' da dirty work), you have 2 Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda) and 2 Sith (Vader, Palpy)... seems balanced to me...
    Don't you count the Darkside Prophets ? They are also force users and change the balance of the force ...
    I think you have also to count force users, who were not destroyed, and in the rebellion are book they talk about an Dark Side school leaded by Palpatin himself, where he can traine new Dark Side users. And there is also the secret agent called BlackHole, who is a strong Dark Side user....

    In that way, it seems to me that there is not really balance, because dark sider users are more than light side users.

  14. #14
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    First, you need to remember not to count the EU or any Tales of books into the movies. The roleplaying games are, in away, EU and infinities (sense gm's can mess with the time line if they want). You do not hear about any dark side adepts or minor force adepts anywhere in the movies, except leia, who didn't even know she could use the force. My theory on the balance of the force is active force users who are fully trained. Sense no mention of this school is made int he movies, it does not count to the final product (unless, for some inexplicable reason, GL decides to throw it in, but I see that as unlikely).

    For the EU, yeah, that is a good point, but then the EU never worked off the idea of Balance in the Force until Ep1 came out. If that school did exist, then you would have to count all the other jedi hidden away in the galaxy. Or the other force users, at least three different types all more or less of the light side. Witches of Dothimir (balanced by night hags, yes) jenessairi (or whatever) and Ysanna of DE2 (minor point, but still interesting breed of force users)

    After you tally all that up, there might actually still be more light side users then dark side.
    Reality is but a figment

  15. #15

    Lightbulb Balance to the Force

    OK, there is a thread in the general discussion on "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" that touches on this a little.

    "The Force is an energy field generated by all living things... it has a light side and a dark side."

    Being generous, lets say that the number beings in the galaxy that can call on the power of the Force in some way, numbers in the millions. The Galaxy contains trillions upon trillions of sentient beings living in it (if not more). To say any one person can influence the Force is hubris plain and simple.

    The whole concept of a chosen one bringing balance to the Force makes no sense. How is the Force itself out of balance? For all the weight that the "chosen one" is given by the Jedi council I never understood exactly what he was supposed to do. The number of Jedi vs the number of Sith really does not effect the Force itself. In the rebellion, there are two KNOWN Jedi and two KNOWN Sith. I ask, so what? How many thousands of non-trained Force sensitive people are still out there? And do they matter to the "Balance of the Force?"

    AOTC for me showed a Jedi order in its decline, arrogant, inflexible and autocratic. The Republic itself was in bad shape. It seemed there was a lot of worry about the "separatists" splitting the Republic. I asked, why do so many systems want out of the Republic if it is so nice? Another question is: Aren't the clones really genetically programmed slaves? They all are living beings, with their own connection to the Force. Why didn't the Jedi order ever have a problem with using people like this? Do the clones not count as "people?" What is the difference between the slavery practiced on Tatooine, that is outlawed in the Republic, and the Clones?

    The Empire rules by fear, or to put a finer point on it, have a big enough military on hand to stop any system, or group of systems, from uprising in revolt. Which is what the Old Republic did to the "Separatists." At no point in the movie were the Separatists attacking the Republic. In fact the only "threat' was never articulated was a desire to separate from the Republic. There was no mention of incursions into Republic held territory, no scenes showing the "Separatists" actually threatening the Republic in any way. Count Doku's argument to Obi Wan was very compelling, I thought they were going to have Doku actually battling Palatine for a minute there.

    So, by "Balance to the Force" could it have meant "Order to the Galaxy?" At this point I don't really know what the Jedi meant. I'm not sure it can be answered, or if the whole "Balance to the Force" issue is a red herring.

    AOTC shook my faith in the Jedi, and made me question the whole Rebellion movement in episodes 4 - 6. But that is another topic.

    Thanks for listening.

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