[ post #91 ]

it won't be a crossover or never be a crossover.

lucasbooks would have a fit over that.

[ post #92 ]

Originally posted by gmjabreson I fear we are getting closer to seeing that becoming a reality to boost sales. A Star Wars/D&D Cross over . In that case Han better get his blaster ready for the Zombies coming at him....

:cough:

I believe THAC0 was TSR, though the point is well taken.

In other news...
Dono is quite right, IMO, on all counts.
I can like the idea of a slimmed down Force system, but they will have to make a pretty dang good case for this one skill thing-- it strikes me as being far too simplistic to model what we've seen in the canon. I dig the Control, Sense and Alter as skills model that was presented, because at least there one has some level of corrospondence both to the SWRPG tradition of Force-wielding and a RAW-bound way to model the sure accumulation of power access in the early levels without resorting to having every single 1st Level Jedi running around with the exact same four ranks in this skill.
But, as I noted earlier, I have been surprised before-- if there is some ingenious way of preserving player individuality and originality then so-be-it, but I almost certainly won't use the single-skill system in my games even if I buy the book and adopt the premise of skill-based Force. It will be split up into Control, Sense and Alter almost certainly, unless these guys blow my mind with the execution.

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[ post #93 ]

The way I read the new Force system, the one skill isn't all there is. There is one skill to use the Force, but how you can use it is decided by the rest of the system and thus there is still foom for variation even if all Force Users have 4 Skill Ranks in Use the Force.

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[ post #94 ]

Originally posted by Lucas Carr The way I read the new Force system, the one skill isn't all there is. There is one skill to use the Force, but how you can use it is decided by the rest of the system and thus there is still foom for variation even if all Force Users have 4 Skill Ranks in Use the Force.

The thing is, we haven't seen "the rest of the system"-- not even a whisper as to the nature of it, at least in anything I've read here.
Until such time as some detail is released, there is plenty of cause for concern (if not "anger" or such large things as that). Thus, I will remain guardedly concerned until such time as my concerns are either relieved or confirmed. WotC has given me no cause for optimism, nor any particular cause for pessimism-- it simply is currently.

Incidentally, it strikes me that the most obviously apparent possibility is a single-skill linked version of the d6 Force system (where the number of powers you possess is based on your skill, and you roll said skill on any related checks). I don't know as that I like that sort of thing-- it seems far too simple to be satisfying. YMMV

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Check out Run to the Rim (NEW! Updated 1/24/08!)
and
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[ post #95 ]

You saying if I have four ranks in "Force Use" I would then have four powers: Control, Alter, Sense and something else? Ugh, that would really make Jedi powerful. I would really not like that.

BTW, not to sound like a complete idiot, but what is THAC0? I read on the free dictionary it was "To Hit Armor Class Zero", but I still don't understand. Can someone please explain?

And if it would be a crossover, I'm not sure it would Zombies, more like Han Solo fighting on a magtrain in Eberron against a group of thugs hired by a dragon-blooded house with a changeling by his side...

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Last edited by SmugglerJedi on 14 August 2006 at 03:36 PM

[ post #96 ]

Originally posted by SmugglerJedi You saying if I have four ranks in "Force Use" I then have four powers: Control, Alter, Sense and something else? Ugh, that would really make Jedi powerful. I would really not like that. BTW, not to sound like a complete idiot, but what is THAC0? I read on the free dictionary it was "To Hit Armor Class Zero", but I still don't understand. Can someone please explain? And if it would be a crossover, I'm not sure it would Zombies, more like Han Solo fighting on a magtrain in Eberron against a group of thugs hired by a dragon-blooded house with a changeling by his side...

In the old AD&D 2nd Edition, The lower your AC, the better. An AC of 0 was the standard.

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[ post #97 ]

the Skill....USe Force is the force equivelent of Concentration....so Force Powers will be like D&D spells more than likely....or worse Psionics...

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[ post #98 ]

Originally posted by Tramp I am definately 100% in the outraged camp. I hate that regardles of the fact that more than twice as many members of the WotC message boards (myself included) specifically said they wanted the VP/WP system kept, and simply wanted the problems fixed, they switched to the HP system which sucks big time. There is no excuse for that, especially when we had no say in it.

Well the problem is that the people posting on the boards is a VERY small number of people and history shows that people against something post way more than those in favor. I think the VP/WP vs HP is such a moot point I really don't care. It makes NO difference to my SWRPG.

Also, this was already decided upon before that thread.

Finally WotC is paying for the development and it is THEIR decision, not ours (and i say ours not yours... I'm not busting on you but really you're a little TOO angry for something you haven't seen in action). It's their game and we can choose to play it or not. So really should we HAVE a say? I think not.

They DO take our opinions and use it to shape the game. I would presume that the VP/WP people were out voted to the HP people. They don't just go "lets do THIS to screw them over! muwahaha!" Apparently all the devs and enough outside people showed dislike in WP/VP that they decided to go another route. You are just made because YOU don't like it... not that it doesn't work.

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[ post #99 ]

Originally posted by SmugglerJedi [B]You saying if I have four ranks in "Force Use" I would then have four powers: Control, Alter, Sense and something else? Ugh, that would really make Jedi powerful. I would really not like that.

Actually it would be like if you have four ranks in Use Force you would have four powers... i.e. See Force, Enhance Ability, Move Object, and Force Strike for instance. We don't know the details yet but that is one theory (the one I'm thinking as well).

I think Control, Sense, and Alter will be similar to Spell Schools in D&D and you might have feats like Force School (Alter) that gives you +1 to checks involving it or something. That is MY theory.

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[ post #100 ]

actually i see it more like this
control -- powers
/
use the force - alter -----powers
\
sense ---- powers

Last edited by gstommylee on 14 August 2006 at 04:19 PM

[ post #101 ]

You mean like, instead of Necromancy and Conjuration with have Control and Alter? Now that I can buy and understand. Perhaps this Force system will work... Though gaining a rank a level stil seems a bit much.

And Cahlwyn, even though it is their product, we still have to play it and buy it. So if we think it sucks and don't play it, then they don't get any money and then they aren't happy. So yeah, I think we have a right to complain. I mean, if we're American and have that potential right of free speech. I dunno how it works in other countries...

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[ post #102 ]

I'm trying to adopt a position of "wait and see," but I'll most likely be giving this a pass. There are too many problems with it for me, not the least of which is the revamp of the system -- quite frankly, I'm tired of having to re-learn the system every time WotC decides we need to buy the core rules again.

I'm also not crazy about the fact that it's A) covering all six movies, which means it will cover none of them in-depth or well, and it's 100 pages lighter, while still retaining the high price tag of the previous rulebook.

I also don't need a rules system that's more miniatures-centric... I don't play with minis, and the previous versions of the rules were already so mini-centered that making them MORE so really makes me fear for playability.

The Force revamp also sounds ludicrous, though I admit to not knowing enough to judge for certain.

It might be good, but I haven't been encouraged by -anything- I've heard so far about the new Star Wars RPG.

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[ post #103 ]

The zombies thing was just an generalized example. I can count the times I played D & D on one hand, and can count the number of times THACO crap came up and stumped me (which was everytime I rolled). At that time the D6 Star Wars was much more easily understandable by me and my players over D and D.

I agree with DGSWENSON on this, about having to relearn a system to play a game everytime they think we need a revamp. We DIDN'T need a revamp, we just wanted more books, more materials, etc. Thus the reason so many fan based sourcebooks are either here or under construction.

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[ post #104 ]

Originally posted by gmjabreson The zombies thing was just an generalized example. I can count the times I played D & D on one hand, and can count the number of times THACO crap came up and stumped me (which was everytime I rolled). At that time the D6 Star Wars was much more easily understandable by me and my players over D and D.

You do know we left THAC0 and d6 Star Wars -- both of which were crap, IMNSHO -- back in the last millenium.

I understood why THAC0 was created: to eliminate the combat attack matrices that took up spaces in the DMG 1e -- personally, love the spreadsheet table and the joy of cross-referencing -- and to answer the question, "What do I need to roll on my d20?" rather than "What's the number I have to beat?"

The problem with the THAC0 is that it was based upon on armor class value that goes down which means an improvement. It gets confusing when you subtract bonus (a postive "+" modifier) to AC and you add penalty (a negative "-" modifier).

I agree with DGSWENSON on this, about having to relearn a system to play a game everytime they think we need a revamp. We DIDN'T need a revamp, we just wanted more books, more materials, etc. Thus the reason so many fan based sourcebooks are either here or under construction.

The reason we have so many fan-based sourcebooks is because of the existing ruleset we have now. It's there. If there is a new ruleset, I have no doubt some fans will write material suitable for that. It's viral.

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Last edited by REG on 14 August 2006 at 07:29 PM

[ post #105 ]

Hi. I'm Moridin, also known as Rodney Thompson. I run this website and wrote the Star Wars RPG Saga Edition.

The sky is not falling. Everyone needs to take a step back and chill for a second.I'll try and hit the high points here, but if I miss something I'll try and come back to it. I just got back from GenCon (literally, 20 minutes ago) so that's why I've not been posting here. Fear not, faithful reader, for my silence is from a lack of internet access at my hotel.

Wizards of the Coast does not need to submit its complete rules systems to the fans in advance of release for your approval. No offense, but if they did that then the book would never get published. If you think you have no input, you're fooling yourselves -- do I not read these forums day in day out? Do I not run this website? Do you honestly think I would not take your desires into consideration while writing the game?

I'm excited about this game because we got to think outside the box. I remember back when the original d20 SWRPG came out, all I heard was "ZOMG! It's D&D with Wookiees! WotC is teh suxxor!" so I would think building a better system would excite some people. Basically, they let me and Owen (who I think have a significant amount of SW street cred) do what we wanted in redesigning almost all of the core systems. If we're going to build a game that captures the Star Wars experience, I think it's better that we do so from the ground up. Now, since d20 Star Wars has helped define that iconic experience, you'll certainly see its influence, well, everywhere.

There's no polite way for me to say this, but you all know hardly anything about the game system and the time to panic has not yet come. And by that same token, WotC does not owe you any explanations of the system -- see what a little teaser has done? It's sent you all into a tizzy over nothing. I believe that many of you will look back on this thread and laugh at the snap decisions being made here. Not only that, but every system they announce in full can just as quickly be "stolen" and adapted by other game companies.

Now, I'll try and hit a few specifics which may or may not to serve as a small tranquilizer for you rabid wolves.

Hit Points: If you think D&D hit points (or even d20 Modern), I'd stop if I were you. The same basic concepts that are found in both HP and VP/WP are still present -- a numeric way of counting how quickly you die -- but that's to be expected. Your stormtroopers will still go down in one or two hits (depending on how solid the hit is), while your lightsaber duels will go on much longer. I think you'll find that it's become easier to model the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel now with the new HP system. I don't know how many lightsaber duels you guys ran before, but none of them lasted more than 5-6 rounds, if that (a mere 30 seconds of in-game time). HP, combined with the sliding condition scale, retains that cinematic feel. And as a side note: if you think having 50 HP means you take 50 HP worth of blaster fire to the chest before you die, I'd reconsider your definition of HP, and think of it more as a "survivability scale" than a pure physical resource pool.

The Force: No one has come that close to guessing how it really works, so relax. Just because we have 1 Use the Force skill now does not mean that every Force power hinges on that one skill. Also, regarding the loss of the Force Adept, this is one change I think you're all going to LOVE. Without revealing too much, let me just put it this way: I think you can now model almost any Force tradition far more precisely than you ever could before, and your FA's will no longer have class features that are useless to them.

Speaking along similar lines, character creation is about a million times more flexible than it was before. It's seriously the part of the book I'm the most proud of. I think you're all going to like it a lot more. Also: don't panic about the missing classes. You'll still be able to model the same kinds of characters as before, and then some. Given the greater flexibility of the system, I also think you'll find a LOT of new options available to you as well. I don't want to get myself into trouble here, but let me just say that just because there is no longer a Jedi Guardian class or a Jedi Consular class doesn't mean that you can't play a Jedi Guardian or a Jedi Consular. Not only that, but you'll probably be designing whole NEW types of Jedi if you so choose, especially with some of the new options for Jedi. Hmm. And Dark Siders, for that matter. But, I digress. You can still make a level 5 Rodian fringer, he just won't be a Rodian Fringer 5. Also, all the classes have received a major shot in the arm. The new soldier and noble both freaking rock. Gone are your "feat every other level" for soldiers; now, they are badasses. Seriously, I wouldn't take away your fringer, it's just a little bit different to build now.

Oh, and before anyone goes on a shooting spree regarding the new "miniatures-friendly rules" I'll just repeat something Chris Perkins said at the seminar: miniatures-friendly means more that the diagrams and examples in the book will uses photos of miniatures than it affects the rules. We did filch a couple of rules -- cover, for example -- from the miniatures game, but good game design shouldn't be ignored just because of its source. I pulled a few ideas from a well-liked Star Wars video game; does that mean they're bad ideas? I feel as though everyone is putting too much emphasis on "miniatures-friendly" in that it really just means that you'll be able to use the miniatures more easily, not that the games is Miniatures Rules, oh and with some story bits. It's and RPG first and foremost, and though you may see some elements of the minis in the game most of those elements are things that work within the context of a Star Wars story.

Yeah, the book is shorter, but that's what happens when you cut out a huge chunk of the skills (folding two to three skills into one certainly cuts out a big chunk of those chapters, not to mention the changes to the Force system removing Force skills and feats). You're going to see a much more unified class chapter, for example, removing chunks of flavor text (or folding it into existing descriptions) and the like. Those are just a couple of examples, but when you look across the board at the way the game was designed you'll see the pages aren't "lost" so much as they are folded in elsewhere. And as my esteemed ally GMSarli pointed out at the seminar, the D6 2nd Edition R&E sourcebook was the same size as Saga Edition.

I know this doesn't satiate you entirely, but I must admit the fervor with which many of you have responded (and basing decisions on almost no information) is startling. When the game comes out, if you look at it and don't like it, I won't think ill of you. If, however, you write the book off based on an hour and a half seminar during which almost nothing was revealed, well, then I think you may want to reevaluate the way you evaluate a game.

I guess I'm just asking for a little patience, and a little faith. The book is a long ways off just yet, so if they don't reveal every iota of information about it RIGHT NOW I think maybe you should understand that it's not soundto do so in any creative business. I'm as eager to talk about the book as I can be, so don't get too bent out of shape if I don't blab everything I know.

I'm excited about the game, and I understand the trepidation many of you must feel. The anger and vitriol? That I just don't get. But hey, it's the web, I'm used to getting yelled at and insulted on a regular basis.

I promise, I'll try and answer as many of your questions as possible, but if I have to say "no comment" I'll beg you to understand. Lucasfilm's implant could go off at the slightest trigger.

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Last edited by Moridin on 14 August 2006 at 08:42 PM